So having an opinion about an ad is drastically different than having an opinion about someone talking about an ad?

Several things, but that wasn't what I was trying to point out. It seems, perhaps, my optimism was misplaced though: What you have quoted is my trying to have you notice that you are not getting what FireOlogist is saying. He is trying to get you to see your biases, and pointing out that AE's plan, if there was one, was to get you to do exactly what you're doing. Nothing to do with the right promoting anything. Again, you can reject this, but it seems clear to me and probably Fire.

the campaign may appeal to a teens rebellious nature—defiantly anti-woke or whatever. — praxis

I would have thought the younger, the more values led, with a tendency to be turned off by these sorts of campaigns. Interesting what you say about younger people.

Several things — AmadeusD

It sounds like you feel that I've said several unreasonable things but are unable to articulate the source of those feelings. That's fine.

AE's plan, if there was one, was to get you to do exactly what you're doing. — AmadeusD

Mission accomplished then. :clap:

I would have thought the younger, the more values led, with a tendency to be turned off by these sorts of campaigns. Interesting what you say about younger people. — Tom Storm

I'm curious what you mean by the younger being more values led.

a large part of the country that would have had no inkling the ad was offensive (me, for example) — Hanover

Right. So people like you (and me) are either racist due to our biases and we don’t know it (so, asleep), or we are way above the fray and just color blind to race. (But that is probably a dream I’m having because I’m actually sleeping. Like Martin Luther King Jr apparently was.)

@praxis

trying to get you to see your biases, and pointing out that AE's plan, if there was one, was to get you to do exactly what you're doing. — AmadeusD

Yes, exactly. You need to come to the ad with certain biases to find it outrageous. Maybe those biases serve a beneficial purpose. But outrage? If one thinks outrage over racism is justified because of that ad then one is sleeping on their own biases.

I'm curious what you mean by the younger being more values led. — praxis

I’d take this to mean more led by feelings, much in line with @Number2018 thesis of the OP.

Right. So people like you (and me) are either racist due to our biases and we don’t know it (so, asleep), or we are way above the fray and just color blind to race. (But that is probably a dream I’m having because I’m actually sleeping. Like Martin Luther King Jr apparently was.) — Fire Ologist

It’s funny you put it that way, because if King had been more “woke” in the original sense of the word, he might have lived longer—the idea being that the marginalized simply need to be more awake out of necessity.

I’d take this to mean more led by feelings, much in line with Number2018 thesis of the OP. — Fire Ologist

If that is intended to trivialise people’s position, then not exactly.

But at a broader level, everything is about feelings, isn’t it? I tend to hold that our choices are guided by our affective dispositions.

My point is that some people hold certain values to be important. When they see ads that trade in implicit racism or sexism, they are disappointed by the choices made. That was certainly my reaction to this campaign. I also recognize that certain people, owing to age or education come away with different understandings.

I'm curious what you mean by the younger being more values led. — praxis

My experince working with younger people is that they tend to be more values led - hence more radical and often more politically engaged. Isn't this merely a commonplace observation? What's the famous quote which satirizes this process - "If you are not a socialist at 20, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at 40, you have no brain."

Youngsters can be led by conservative values. I suppose you mean that youths may have a slight tendency to lean liberal. That appears to be statistically true according to recent surveys.

If that is intended to trivialise people’s position, then not exactly. — Tom Storm

Not to trivialize. I literally typed out the “if not liberal when you are young you have no heart, and not conservative when older you have no brain” but took it back because I didn’t think people knew that phrase.

everything is about feelings, isn’t it? — Tom Storm

Maybe, many things involve feelings. But don’t we need to scrutinize and dissect feelings from logic from biases, from theories and propositions - everything isn’t about feelings. Although I think there is a case to made that wokeness is all about feelings - it is for the sake of feelings and driven by emotions.

Youngsters can be led by conservative values. I suppose you mean that youths may have a slight tendency to lean liberal. That appears to be statistically true according to recent surveys. — praxis

Indeed. And by extension we would imagine that the values held by 'woke' activism would be strongest amongst this cohort.

But don’t we need to scrutinize and dissect feelings from logic from biases, from theories and propositions - everything isn’t about feelings. Although I think there is a case to made that wokeness is all about feelings - it is for the sake of feelings and driven by emotions. — Fire Ologist

I'm not certain on this. But as a supporter of diversity and inclusion in general terms, I’d say it’s as much a question of values as anything else, values that are informed by our affective and aesthetic dispositions. The hard part is knowing where to draw the line regarding when feelings are important in a discourse and when they’re not. I suspect you and I might draw that line in different places, which probably makes further discussion superfluous. I’m personally opposed to the coarsening of public discourse, name-calling, personal attacks, dismissive labeling, because I believe such behaviour damages people and undermines constructive dialogue.

No, they just are not relevant to what I'm pointing out. I've bene over why some of your responses are unreasonable at the time i responded to them. It doesn't seem to bare repeating.. You can review if you'd like to.

Fair enough on the second comment :P

When they see ads that trade in implicit racism or sexism, they are disappointed by the choices made. — Tom Storm

That's fine, but generally when they see this in something or other, they can just be wrong, though. Usually are. That's the problem. The majority of those who Fire and I are referencing (to be sure, I am speaking about people who fit the bill. Not trying to fit people into the bill - I think that is what the Woke do).

The response to this ad campaign is just not justified in these terms. You have to be out of your mind to think that ad is championing White Supremacy. Utterly bereft of either sense, or cultural understanding. This is just as obvious with claims about misogyny among young people. Daily there are reels and reels of people confronting businesses or individuals over perceived slights that are plainly either invented, extremely tenuous or made-up for clicks. I'm sure you're aware of this. And that's what we're referring to. Those people are moving on feelings without any reasoning. Just some pre-recorded reaction of "hear word A, do x" I've been able to have a couple (including my wife, when we met) admit this. But it doesn't stop them from doing it (other than my wife) in my experience. That is a serious issue if we are ever to get along with one another. Given it's young people, it's an extreme worry for those of us who are not yet middle-aged.

I think having children usually changes this bent from Left to Right. And those who don't change when they have children tend to raise relatively unregulated children. A recent convert is Whitney Cummings, who was a pretty obvious darling of, at least, the non-card-carrying left. Once she had a kid, it all changed and she's been quite public about it.

No, they just are not relevant to what I'm pointing out. I've bene over why some of your responses are unreasonable at the time i responded to them. It doesn't seem to bare repeating.. You can review if you'd like to. — AmadeusD

I’ve only skimmed your trollish responses so I don’t know what you’re talking about. I guess it will remain a mystery.

Trollish? There is no chance you're here in good faith.

As noted, you could review the exchanges where i have said things like "I do not think this is a reasonable response". But, you could also continue on with your biases, reading things in and out of the comments to your heart's content.

If you've only skimmed them, bugger off and read them properly. That might explain why you're saying unreasonable things. And again, indicates you're not here in good faith.

If you've only skimmed them, bugger off and read them properly. That might explain why you're saying unreasonable things. — AmadeusD

I might be saying unreasonable things because I haven’t read everything you’ve written to me? You know that sounds crazy, right?

You have just said something unreasonable.

Or you're trolling. Either way, previous comments stand.

having children usually changes this bent from Left to Right — AmadeusD

Interesting. Makes some sense.

recent convert is Whitney Cummings — AmadeusD

Interesting. She’s funny.

knowing where to draw the line — Tom Storm

Always.

Indeed. And by extension we would imagine that the values held by 'woke' activism would be strongest amongst this cohort. — Tom Storm

My wife has been a high school English teacher for many years and I briefly asked her about this. Her insights were generally what you might expect—kids in more conservative communities tend to have conservative views and kids in more liberal communities tend to have more liberal views.

Incidentally, my father was a staunch conservative and mentioned the aphorism about shifting values when I was a kid, so for a long time I expected to turn conservative when I grew up. I cleverly avoided this fate by never growing up.

I cleverly avoided this fate by never growing up. — praxis

:lol: Nice. All too telling (not about you, to be clear)..

I think progressives need to understand that being conservative doesn’t mean having no heart or empathy or feelings.
And conservatives need to understand that being liberal doesn’t mean having no common sense.

These are both simply not true. Generalizations are not helpful.

Diversity and tolerance go in all directions and are about unique particulars, not generalizations. We think to low of those we disagree with. And we think too highly of what we think about ourselves.

True humility about oneself, and true respect for all others regardless of the flaws - these need to be our personal goals, or we should talk about why not.

I don’t see those as the goals of woke people. Maybe they align with the goals of wokeism on paper, but that’s not the message that the woke put out. Neither do conservatives. If humility and respect really were our personal goals, there wouldn’t be so much outrage involved. People don’t seem to really want to be tolerant or appreciate true diversity, or think of themselves as all equal - people would rather hate the deplorables, hate maga, hate liberal elites, hate wokeist whiners. Right? Who hates me for saying it? Who thinks I must be willfully blind, or heartless for being anti-woke.

We are having the wrong conversations.

What is humility? Why is it good for the individual and for the community. Is it good (Nietzsche thought not.). Does humility mean thinking we are bad, or just no better than anyone else? Is there any reason to rank others, and can you do so while being humble?

What does it mean to respect diversity and be truly tolerant? Does it require forgiveness and sacrifice? How can we push back against what no one should tolerate and still respect diversity and be tolerant?

I cleverly avoided this fate by never growing up.
— praxis

:lol: Nice. All too telling (not about you, to be clear).. — AmadeusD

That would be great if we stayed innocent too. But we are far from innocent anymore.

Let me ask an honest question: if you (meaning anyone) think your ideas are the good ones, and that your ideas reflect the fact that you are awake and enlightened, don’t you think that sounds vain and self-important to the person who disagrees with you, the one who is not awake and not enlightened? The word “woke” as a class of people is itself a bit anti-woke, elitist, oppressive, hurtful. Is there any self-reflection to be had surrounding the word “woke”?

I think progressives need to understand that being conservative doesn’t mean having no heart or empathy or feelings.
And conservatives need to understand that being liberal doesn’t mean having no common sense. — Fire Ologist

Yes, that's a point I often make too.

I hold progressive and conservative positions, depending on the issue. Conservatives have almost never concerned me - reactionaries and hard right people I'm less optimistic about.

What is humility? — Fire Ologist

Not sure.

If humility and respect really were our personal goals, there wouldn’t be so much outrage involved. People don’t seem to really want to be tolerant or appreciate true diversity, or think of themselves as all equal - people would rather hate the deplorables, hate maga, hate liberal elites, hate wokeist whiners. — Fire Ologist

I tend to come from a starting point that people do the best with what they have or with what that can understand and all we can do is have a conversation with those who think differently and maybe something positive can come from that. The stumbling block to me seems to be tribalism and binary thinking. And when it comes to public discourse, the inflammatory approach of media tends to promote extreme, black and white.

I think progressives need to understand that being conservative doesn’t mean having no heart or empathy or feelings.
And conservatives need to understand that being liberal doesn’t mean having no common sense.

These are both simply not true. Generalizations are not helpful. — Fire Ologist

Those are rather odd and extreme generalizations. I recall someone in the discussion saying it ultimately comes down to values. People prioritize their values differently, shaped by cultural influences and, perhaps, innate personal traits.

What good would woke folks be if they didn’t notice things that most people are oblivious to. :lol: — praxis

This poll says only 12% of the population was offended by the Sweeney ad. https://nypost.com/2025/08/12/business/12-find-sydney-sweeney-american-eagle-ad-offensive-poll/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

This suggests a conservative backlash disproportionate to the extent of the liberal position being used to present the left as radicalized.

It's also possible the left took the bait by refusing to downplay the ad and instead chose to adopt the 12% minority as its official position.

You're identifying the wrong problem.

The problem is that those who did respond jumped to 'Nazi'. "Overt eugenics". "white supremacy".

No one has overblown either side of this one, as far as I'm concerned. I am also extremely reticent to believe a poll about offense to an ad campaign - how embarrassing to hit Yes even if you are.

This suggests a conservative backlash disproportionate to the extent of the liberal position being used to present the left as radicalized. — Hanover

Well, I’m sure this is an isolated incident and not something MAGA does on a daily basis or anything.

It's also possible the left took the bait by refusing to downplay the ad and instead chose to adopt the 12% minority as its official position. — Hanover

No Democrat officeholder has publicly commented on the campaign. As for leftists personalities, Lizzo modified one of her songs or something and Colbert devoted around a minute of one of his monologues to joke about it and ridicule the wokesters for overreacting.

Well if you

What is humility?
— Fire Ologist

No idea. — Tom Storm

How could you say that?

You know what humility is.

You said above that you “support diversity”.

But as a supporter of diversity and inclusion in general terms, — Tom Storm

Diversity and tolerance and acceptance of those who are different are made possible by humility.

Humility is being grateful. And thankful. It is thanking someone else for what they do for you. It is acknowledging others, before yourself, above yourself at times. It is not taking credit for the good you might do, and even giving credit to others for the good you do.

We all do these things. That is humility.

If you value inclusion, humility helps there too. We include others, the diverse, just as our own differences are included and accepted by others. You cannot demand inclusion (like you cannot demand others love you); you can only accept inclusion from others, or grant it to others. So you humbly are grateful when others do in fact include you, and that is why you include all others, so that all of us, equally, form an accepting community.

Does that sound good and right? Does it sound woke? It certainly is utopian, because most people don’t really want to be humble and respect diversity.

that people do the best with what they have or with what that can understand — Tom Storm

That sounds like humility to me - you see a best effort in people, and are not putting yourself above them.

all we can do is have a conversation with those who think differently — Tom Storm

And that takes respect, to patiently let others speak, and you speak to them in a conversation, instead of a fight over differences.

So we seem to agree, even though you said you don’t know what humility is.

the stumbling block to me seems to be tribalism and binary thinking. — Tom Storm

Here is where we have to be careful. We just said we value conversation with people who think differently. So isn’t binary thinking just another different way of thinking that we should humbly respect (at least once in a while)? Is binary thinking nothing but a stumbling block? What is really wrong with a little binary simplification, once in a while? We should tolerate that too, at times.

Tribalism seems counterproductive to real conversation. You can love your own tribe, but that is a positive feeling, and a love of what is diverse from other tribes. We have to remember that a tribe is just another unique culture and we should be accepting of diversity too, so tribes themselves are not a bad thing. But it does no one any good to hate some other tribe, so if tribalism involves hating the deplorable, and hating the maga, or hating the woke, of hating that race, then it is certainly a stumbling block. Hate is the weakness. Lack of humility about one’s own tribe is the weakness. Lack of respect for humanity as a whole is the weakness. Nothing wrong with loving your trib; everything wrong with hating someone else’s tribe just because it’s not your own.

And when it comes to public discourse, the inflammatory approach of media tends to promote extreme, black and white. — Tom Storm

Binary thinking is a tool, a process. It’s not good or bad in right measures, I think. But when this tool is used to pit good guys versus bad guys, instead of brothers with sisters, well than I have to agree with you.


——-

I’d say it’s as much a question of values as anything else, values that are informed by our affective and aesthetic dispositions. — Tom Storm

ultimately comes down to values. People prioritize their values differently, shaped by cultural influences and, perhaps, innate personal traits. — praxis

Are you both equating the values we happen to choose with our feelings, or saying we make our choices out of gut feelings, and random “cultural influences” and “innate traits” that we don’t choose?

See, to my way of thinking, that is a completely different conversation. That also defeats DEI. If people’s opinions are a bundle of randomly developed value choices not even really in their control (influenced and innate) then a real, open conversation Tom mentioned above is hardly ever going to happen. Only by shaping society first can we even open people up to those conversations. And to want to reshape society we can’t be tolerant, we can’t respect diversity, we can’t humbly include those who think things that should not be valued. We have to reshape the diverse to conform.

It’s like you are saying rednecks can’t help being MAGA, too many cultural influences and innate traits. So we don’t need a conversation with them, and because of bias, a real conversation isn’t possible. So we should remake the culture so maybe the next generation will truly get it.

That all sounds anti-DEI to me. Although it’s the arguments the woke make. That’s why they create such strong but negative identities - patriarchy, white privilege, dumb redneck maga - there is no conversation with these types, and no way for a father not to be patriarchal, or for a white man to not have privilege - so there is no reason for a conversation with them and no true tolerance or support of diversity.

So I think raising “we all have different values” in this way sort of removes autonomy and contradicts values like “diversity, equity, inclusion” or “humility and respect” and contradicts someone who truly thinks:

that people do the best with what they have or with what they can understand and all we can do is have a conversation with those who think differently. — Tom Storm

Values discussions are important. But if you think we each get to prioritize our own value lists, then we will never see equity and inclusion, just diversity.

Can you square tolerance, acceptance, support for diversity, with people who don’t share our values? I think the conversation we want to have is about what are the values we ALL must share. Yes “must” share. If we are to make a better world, we have to find value in every person in it, or decide if we don’t find value in everyone, how best to remove them or change their minds (but that’s not tolerance or supporting diversity). Why does the “it’s all about personal values and priorities” make a better case for wokeism, because I don’t see it. I see it as about maga and woke and whites and blacks sharing something, consciously, and it getting into all of their DNA for future generations. Nothing bad to root out of others, but something good to nurture in ourselves first and everyone we interact with. True tolerance out of respect. True diversity, out of humility.

@Joshs what do you think of the above? I am anti-woke. Am I just asleep, or just diverse? If diverse, don’t I need to be accepted too? Or do I need to be changes, awoken, made aware of my implicit biases? This is why I charge wokeism as being incoherent, self-contradictory, and woke people with being less tolerant, hateful of those who are the wrong kind of diverse and elitist when it comes to value choices. The slogans don’t all hang together, and the actions speak louder than words.

The woke do not know how to value diversity, just conformity. The woke do not understand where we all are equal, and where we all are unique. The woke do not include those who don’t conform to their values. And the woke are not self-reflective enough to see all of the contradiction.