• Paula Tozer
    24
    Disclaimer:
    When I made this post, I left something out - the reason I posted it. This is a post that outlines exactly how a person can realize that what they were taught to believe was erroneous. It is also a comment on the state of the world, where religion and politics do not collide, but where they have allied. Observing that men in power have found the most brilliant and pervasive means to control the masses through their powerful superstitions (both sides) seems logical to me. I do understand that there is more than one reason for millions supporting someone who, in my estimation, has contempt for those he and his party lead, but I see religion as the root cause. If you do not agree with me, that's fine. We do not have to engage in word wars. Simply move on. My world is free, at least for the time being. However, if you wish to speak on the topic of coercion through dogma and fear-mongering, I'm ready to respond.

    You know, when I first realized that Christians lied, I was upset. I had been fiercely fed the Catholic way of seeing and thinking from before I was born, by being born into the legacy of Catholicism. As a teenager, I focused my opposition on one parent—she was the vigorous enforcer of “the faith” in our household.
    Within this framework, the religious folks I knew extolled their version, delivered in their homes of worship, and put on a friendly face while secretly believing that theirs was “the one true religion.” I remember a very influential person in my life being smug when she told me that the Baptist religion—and all Protestant religions were derived from Roman Catholicism.
    She had no clue that what she was talking about was the razor-sharp divide between her kind and the men and women who didn’t believe as she believed. What I began to observe, in more subtle tones than the conflicts in Northern Ireland contrasted, was that it was us against them. I’d often hear: When you’re grounded in what you believe, other people’s preaching about their version of a Christian god won’t sway you.
    This mindset allowed her to pretend to accept their version of god and to be friendly with other faiths, to the point of sometimes sitting in on a service meant to promote inclusivity of all Christian religions in our area. It was that version of superiority that got passed down to me. I guess we all must feel superior to someone, right?
    That was the first lie.
    To say it wasn’t her fault—that she was doing the best she knew how—didn’t change what could be reduced to fear mongering and coercion. She vigorously defended her faith and regularly made me the target of her righteousness. Step out of line, and you’ll be condemned, rejected, ridiculed, and sanctioned—steps the representative of her god regularly preached from the Catholic pulpit.
    I got angry when I realized she, too, was just a pawn in a religious battle. Even though it had the semblance of civility, the true wrath of her god was visited upon me. That was a battle she truly believed she had to win. A modern-day Joan of Arc. I would be her best work, her triumph over sin.
    Much to her dismay, it didn’t work.
    After a particularly tragic event that occurred in my life, an event that took her out of my life, some folks thought it prudent to invite me to go to their church. I understood that they thought it was an honor—but they didn’t know me. Not at all. One woman, when I said, “I do not belong to any organized faith,” muttered to herself but within earshot: “What happened to you that caused you to think like that?”
    She assumed something must have turned me off religion—a source of comfort for her. It was also obvious that she thought that the tragic event skewed my thinking. That it made me angry at GOD and turn away from HIM.
    She didn’t have a clue who I was. Who I am.
    At that point, I was approximately ten years into my move away from any form of religiosity. I had rejected all versions that told me what to do, how to live, and how to think. Kierkegaard said, “When you label me, you negate me.” He gave too much credit to outside forces, to you, as I see it.
    The best version of me revised his famous admonition to take back my power: “When I label me, I create me.”
    It took me decades to declare, I’m not a Christian, and by that time, I was quite comfortable with stating my position on the sky-man-god. I tried to turn her offer down with class, but I don’t think she bought it.
    When I got really angry, something came before it: sadness. Disillusionment. Confusion. The discomfort of realizing I’d played right into their god’s hands in my desperate need for connection and love. Granted, it happened before I had an inkling of what a god or a religion was—and that makes it even more insidious.
    The worst part? It never worked. I was always rejected, mirroring the vision she reflected of her god.
    People who don’t stand for something will fall for anything. There’s truth in that statement. Consider that children are people too—people with highly neuroplastic brains, ripe for the picking. Children are forced to pick a side before they even know there’s a battle raging, because it rages out of their sight, and they don’t have the insight, the perspective, to realize it.
    When we start considering catechism, Sunday School, homilies, sermons, and religious “universities” as training in spiritual warfare, we will begin to realize the true nature of corporate, organized, old-time religion.
    I write this not because I’m attempting to force-feed you my perspective. To do that, my parent would win, and that’s not an option. My liberation is not up for discussion.
    I write because writing is my form of protest. I see what’s happening in our world today, how old-time religion’s archaic values are the force behind the scenes for an authoritarian regime, and how confused the good citizens of that nation are when they try to tease out the knots of how it crept up on them and usurped their version of reality.
    It's deeply disturbing to see siblings against siblings, partners turn on one another, and good women and men fight for their right to worship a man they view as a demigod.
    In real life, it compels me to ask the same question that woman mulled over within earshot that day, “What happened to you that caused you to think like that?”
    What caused you to allow your faith to be turned into a commodity?
    What made you condone violence and suffering if it doesn’t come pounding on your door?
    In the Nobel Peace Prize-nominated tradition of Carl Rogers’ Unconditional Positive Regard, we must be willing to hear their answers.
  • frank
    17.9k
    :up: :up: :up:
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    when I first realized that Christians lied, I was upset.Paula Tozer

    Welcome to the forum.

    I am not a theist - I have no particular religious belief. I was raised a protestant until my early teens, when my mother died. Since my father was not religious, I fell away from the church. I married a Catholic and we raised our children in the church. I didn't go to church regularly, but I supported my wife in her and my children's involvement. There was never any serious religious conflict between us. When my children got older, they moved away from the church also. I think that bothers my wife, but I have never seen it cause any conflict between her and my kids. I respect my wife's beliefs and I can see the value it has for her.

    Clearly, your experience has been much more painful than my family's. I know lots of people who have experiences that are more like mine than like yours. I'm sure you know lots of people who have experiences more like yours. I guess I would say that the religious believers I know don't lie about their beliefs. I'm sure some, perhaps many, are hypocritical, but I don't think any more so than many of us are hypocritical about our principles and ideologies. Many of us don't always live up to the standards we preach.

    I'm sorry you've had such a hard time with this.
  • kindred
    199
    The issue with religion causing division (and wars) amongst people is because when ideology or dogma cannot be defended by reason it’s defended by weapons. It’s an inherent issue with any ideology because they’re rigid in their structure and do not evolve with the times.
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    Thanks for your response! It's been a hard road, and there's more to it, but that's basically how I felt about my time with religion. We lived in a small community that was very bigoted, and the lines between Catholic and Protestant were drawn in the sand, not in a confrontational way but in a subtle way. It actually shocked me when I realized just how much power religion had over my childhood. My parent truly believed she was doing the right thing. In many ways, my upbringing has been an example of what not to do. I moved away from the church in my late 30s, and my mother vigorously disapproved. However, she had her good points too - she was an extrovert who never met a stranger. I've taken the best of what she gave me and released the rest. What led me to write this piece is the bizarre situation that I see happening in the USA, with the Christian Nationalists taking over. I've come to realize that religion is the root cause of all that's wrong with society - it makes people into sheeple, followers who need a shepherd. It stops good men and women from standing up to tyranny under the guise of "live and let live." Thank you for your kindness. I hope my response hasn't offended you.
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    Yes! Agreed! That's entirely my point. Religion is the cause of what's wrong with our world. More people have been killed in the name of a diety than any other way.
  • Outlander
    2.6k
    You know, when I first realized that Christians liedPaula Tozer

    Let's put this idea and heartfelt feeling into generational context. Such was felt thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago.

    When good men claimed to make a "government" to repel the evils and ills of human existence: death, violence, robbery, rape, crime, etc.

    Most were formed in good intent. But unfortunately., just like every Kingdom formed by the Rule and Power of a Just King. He, at least his body, is still mortal, and so will one day pass away, just like the lowliest thief. We attempt to have education, and more often than not it provides more or less the attempt is was envisioned to. But. There's always the possibility of a bad apple.

    So, did "random kingdom xyz" that in fact prevented untold and unfathomable amounts of suffering and led to countless arrests and executions of those unfit to live moral life... such a great legacy, "lie" because it succumbed to the fate all human institutions inevitably succumb to. Corruption? I think not. But it's a fair assessment. And why things are, just a bit different now, shall we say.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    More people have been killed in the name of a diety than any other way.Paula Tozer

    Can you demonstrate that? I doubt it’s accurate.

    I’m an atheist, but I don’t blame religion for everything that’s wrong or bad. Just look at Pol Pot, an atheist whose regime murdered millions of men, women, and children for a political agenda. Mao, another atheist, killed 30–40 million for his political vision. Stalin? Same story. One might even argue that philosophy (if we include political ideologies) may have been been responsible for more deaths than any other pathway.

    Sounds like you've had a tough time of things, but perhaps it's important not to assume that one’s own experience is the whole reality of the world.
  • Hanover
    14.2k
    The problem is that your post is just a trauma dump, leaving the only appropriate response to be "sorry you went through that," and then maybe sharing similar stories we've had in order to validate your feelings.

    Consider that done.

    Now describe the lie (the intentional misrepresentation) of the truth by the Church, not just how the people in your life disappointed you. That way we might be able to respond philosophically, as opposed to just offering you personal encouragement.
  • frank
    17.9k
    The problem is that your post is just a trauma dump, leaving the only appropriate response to be "sorry you went through that," and then maybe sharing similar stories we've had in order to validate your feelings.

    Consider that done.

    Now describe the lie (the intentional misrepresentation) of the truth by the Church, not just how the people in your life disappointed you. That way we might be able to respond philosophically, as opposed to just offering you personal encouragement.
    Hanover

    I didn't get that out of it. Philosophy is all about recognizing the forces that shaped you and trying to peep beyond them. If you don't encounter anything negative on that journey, you're probably in denial.
  • Outlander
    2.6k
    Philosophy is all about recognizing the forces that shaped you and trying to peep beyond them.frank

    But is it really? If one is aware, truly, of what shapes not only one's self but the entire world, is it not something perhaps a bit more internal? :chin:
  • frank
    17.9k
    But is it really? If one is aware, truly, of what shapes not only one's self but the entire world, is it not something perhaps a bit more internal?Outlander

    I can see why you would ask that, and it's a great question. It really highlights the stakes and what not.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    Philosophy is all about recognizing the forces that shaped you and trying to peep beyond them.
    — frank

    But is it really? If one is aware, truly, of what shapes not only one's self but the entire world, is it not something perhaps a bit more internal? :chin:
    Outlander

    It would seem to me that a key role of philosophy is to transcend one’s limitations - cultural and self-created. To ask better questions and move beyond the quotidian. I suspect there are many ways this could be done.
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    I hear you. It was no fun, that's for sure. However, it played a significant part in shaping my outlook on life. The post was explicitly designed to show how a perspective of a person can be shaped by the prevailing norms of their society. I could be anyone brought up in this way. I'm not special and don't want to be. What it's done for me - it's allowed me to stop thinking in magical terms and to embrace philosophy as a real option. It released me to think further than I could have if I tried to function within the confines of religion. It led me to write books and create two philosophical theories. I'm so much better choosing to move beyond those confines. If philosophy is all about recognizing the forces that shaped you and trying to peep beyond them, then I believe this post is exactly that. Each person comes to their realizations in their own way. This is mine. What I will share in this forum will be my proof of what my experience has taught me.
  • 180 Proof
    16k
    One might even argue that philosophy (if we include political ideologies) may have been been responsible for more deaths than any other pathway.Tom Storm
    I don't think "philosophy" has been to blame for mass murders, etc so much as dogmas have (i.e. unthinking, or rationalized, obedience to authority / tradition / popularity / superstition ...)
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    Yep. If one is only allowed to ask certain questions and accept certain answers the box is intact. Blasting through that BS is the point of philosophical thought, I think...
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    I did some research and here's what I found. Perhaps these numbers aren't accurate?

    Religious Wars in Europe:

    The Crusades (1095-1291): Estimates of deaths vary widely, but it is believed that hundreds of thousands of people were killed in these series of religious wars between Christians and Muslims.

    The Thirty Years' War (1618-1648): While not solely a religious war, it was deeply influenced by religious conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Estimates suggest that up to 8 million people died, both directly and indirectly, from warfare, disease, and famine.

    The Wars of Religion in France (1562-1598): These conflicts between Catholics and Huguenots (French Protestants) resulted in an estimated 3-4 million deaths.

    Religious Conflicts in the Middle East:

    The Ottoman-Safavid Wars (1514-1736): A series of conflicts between the Ottoman Empire and the Safavid Empire, driven by religious differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. Estimates of deaths are difficult to ascertain, but they were significant.

    The Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988): While not solely a religious war, it had strong sectarian overtones between Shia and Sunni Muslims. Estimates suggest that over 1 million people were killed.
    Religious Conflicts in South Asia:

    The Partition of India (1947): The division of British India into India and Pakistan, largely along religious lines, resulted in an estimated 200,000 to 2 million deaths.

    The Mughal-Maratha Wars (1680-1707): A series of conflicts between the Mughal Empire and the Maratha Confederacy, driven by religious and political differences. Estimates of deaths are uncertain but significant.

    Religious Conflicts in Africa:

    The Rwandan Genocide (1994): While not solely a religious conflict, it had strong ethnic and religious overtones. An estimated 500,000 to 1 million people were killed.

    The Nigerian Civil War (1967-1970): Also known as the Biafran War, it had religious and ethnic dimensions. Estimates suggest that 1-3 million people died.

    Religious Conflicts in the Americas:

    The Conquest of the Americas: The Spanish conquest of the Americas in the 16th century, driven by religious zeal, resulted in the deaths of millions of indigenous people due to warfare, disease, and forced labor.

    The Thirty Years' War (1618-1648): While not solely a religious war, it was deeply influenced by religious conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Estimates suggest that up to 8 million people died, both directly and indirectly, from warfare, disease, and famine.

    Religious Conflicts in Asia:

    The Taiping Rebellion (1850-1864): A millenarian movement in China that resulted in an estimated 20-70 million deaths.

    The Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901): A violent anti-foreign and anti-Christian uprising in China that resulted in an estimated 100,000 deaths.

    These represent only a fraction of the religious conflicts throughout history. The total number of people killed in the name of a god is likely in the hundreds of millions, if not more.

    I agree, there are a number of factors that are involved, but everyone believes that their version of god is on their side.
  • Hanover
    14.2k
    I didn't get that out of it. Philosophy is all about recognizing the forces that shaped you and trying to peep beyond them. If you don't encounter anything negative on that journey, you're probably in denial.frank

    Doesn't the word "Therapy" work better in that sentence than "Philosophy."

    What I got out of the post is that she suffers from religion trauma, a thing all too pervasive, and a thing that plenty of people can identify with.

    Had her mother been open to her questions, unconditionally loving and embracing, and in all ways the perfect mother, is Christianity vindicated?
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    Hey, you don't have to validate me. Or agree. It's about transparency on my part. My upbringing shaped me, as yours shaped you. I agree with Chris Hitchens and Sam Harris in this regard - you don't have to be religious to be a good person. In fact, religion warps the mind of those who must operate within its confines.
  • Paula Tozer
    24
    Perhaps. Perhaps not. That was not my reality, so I can't speak to that aspect. And yes, religious trauma is all too pervasive, way too pervasive. That's my point in sharing. A surgical, logical state of mind is sometimes hard won, wouldn't you agree?
  • frank
    17.9k
    Had her mother been open to her questions, unconditionally loving and embracing, and in all ways the perfect mother, is Christianity vindicated?Hanover

    Christianity is a dying religion. Vindication, even if it were possible, wouldn't help.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    I agree, there are a number of factors that are involved, but everyone believes that their version of god is on their side.Paula Tozer

    Everyone believes their version of 'truth' is on their side.

    The problem isn't so much religion as it is tribalism and dogma.

    I don't think "philosophy" has been to blame for mass murders, etc so much as dogmas have180 Proof

    I agree. A critical point abotu human behaviours and tribalisms.

    These represent only a fraction of the religious conflicts throughout history. The total number of people killed in the name of a god is likely in the hundreds of millions, if not more.Paula Tozer

    Lists are easy here, thanks to ChatGPT, are some of the non-religious wars and no doubt people will debate the finer points:

    20th & 21st Century
    Wars & Armed Conflicts

    World War I (1914–1918) — Rooted in nationalism, imperial rivalries, alliances, and militarism.

    World War II (1939–1945) — Driven by fascism, militarism, expansionism, and racial ideologies (e.g., Nazi doctrine) rather than religion.

    Korean War (1950–1953) — Cold War proxy conflict over competing political systems (communism vs. capitalism).

    Vietnam War (1955–1975) — Anti-colonial struggle evolving into a Cold War ideological battle.

    Falklands War (1982) — Argentina vs. UK over territorial claims.

    Iran–Iraq War (1980–1988) — Although both sides were Muslim, the main cause was territorial and political rivalry, not theological difference.

    Russia–Ukraine Conflict (2014–present) — Geopolitical, territorial, and national identity disputes.

    Ethiopia–Eritrea Border War (1998–2000) — Primarily about border demarcation.

    State-led Atrocities & Mass Killings

    Holodomor (1932–1933) — Soviet-engineered famine in Ukraine under Stalin; political/economic repression.

    Great Purge (1936–1938) — Stalin’s political purges in the USSR.

    The Holocaust — Although Jews were targeted partly on religious identity, Nazi ideology was racial/ethno-nationalist, not religious.

    Mao’s Great Leap Forward (1958–1962) — Economic policies leading to famine and tens of millions of deaths.

    Cultural Revolution (1966–1976) — Political and ideological purging under Mao.

    Khmer Rouge Regime in Cambodia (1975–1979) — Pol Pot’s agrarian communist vision, ~1.7 million killed.

    North Korean purges and gulags — Political control and suppression of dissent.

    Rwandan Genocide (1994) — Ethnic conflict between Hutu and Tutsi.

    Bosnian War Massacres (1992–1995) — Mainly ethnic nationalism, though with some cultural identity overlap.

    Earlier History

    Mongol Conquests (13th–14th centuries) — Expansionist empire building, not religious conversion campaigns.

    Taiping Rebellion (1850–1864) — This one had a pseudo-Christian ideology, so not fully non-religious — but many other Chinese civil wars (e.g., An Lushan Rebellion, 8th century) were political/territorial.

    Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815) — French expansionism, nationalism, and power politics.

    American Civil War (1861–1865) — Primarily about slavery and state rights, not theology.

    Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871) — Territorial and political rivalry.

    Key Points

    Many of the deadliest conflicts in history — World War II, Mao’s campaigns, Stalin’s purges, the Khmer Rouge — were entirely non-religious in origin.

    Even when ethnic groups with religious identities are involved, the core cause can be political, nationalist, or economic.

    Political ideologies like fascism, communism, and nationalism have caused as many or more deaths than explicitly religious wars.
  • Hanover
    14.2k
    Hey, you don't have to validate me. Or agree. It's about transparency on my part. My upbringing shaped me, as yours shaped you. I agree with Chris Hitchens and Sam Harris in this regard - you don't have to be religious to be a good person. In fact, religion warps the mind of those who must operate within its confines.Paula Tozer

    My point is simply that this is a philosophy forum, so what difference does it make philosophically whether your mom used religion to build a horribly dysfunctional childhood for you or whether she did hundreds of other terrible things?

    In all cases, I'd extend my sympathies. How is that a philosophy issue?

    Then you throw in that atheists can be good people too. I agree with you. Was that your point in the OP you wanted to debate?
  • Hanover
    14.2k
    Christianity is a dying religion. Vindication, even if it were possible, wouldn't help.frank

    Do you think that responsive to my post?
  • Hanover
    14.2k
    Perhaps. Perhaps not. That was not my reality, so I can't speak to that aspect. And yes, religious trauma is all too pervasive, way too pervasive. That's my point in sharing. A surgical, logical state of mind is sometimes hard won, wouldn't you agree?Paula Tozer

    Sure, personal change is often forged in trauma, and maybe yours was, and possibly yours is a story of overcoming great adversity, and maybe I'm a dick for being combative despite what you've been through, and fill in the rest of the blanks that describe me and you.

    I'm just looking for where the philosophical debate lies.
  • frank
    17.9k
    Do you think that responsive to my post?Hanover

    I do. I didn't see a "poor me" in the OP. I saw this:

    God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? — Nietzsche

    Plus she was talking about a wound that gets passed down, having to do with the bloody conflict between Catholics and Protestants. If you walk away from the wound, you can end up feeling like the ancestral continuum has been broken. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Or so I've heard.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    I do. I didn't see a "poor me" in the OP. I saw this:

    God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?
    — Nietzsche
    frank

    What do you take to be the meaning of that often proffered quote?
  • frank
    17.9k
    What do you take to be the meaning of that often proffered quote?Tom Storm

    That Christianity didn't survive the Enlightenment, when it turned from living religion to fairy tales, the result being an identity crisis that's still unfolding.
  • Hanover
    14.2k
    Really, you believe that she was describing the collapse of Western civilization's reliance upon a foundational diety and challenge of finding a suitable replacement for the avoidance of existential crisis.

    Just thought it'd sound more ridiculous to say out loud
  • frank
    17.9k
    Really, you believe that she was describing the collapse of Western civilization's reliance upon a foundational diety and challenge of finding a suitable replacement for the avoidance of existential crisis.Hanover

    No, I guess not. I still thought it was a cool post, though, clueless as I am.
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