A good Anglo-saxon word, none of your Mediterranean rubbish!

Old English wis, Proto-Germanic *wissaz, *wittos of PIE root *weid- "to see", although early uses seem to relate to practical stuff, trades and crafts - still seen in the suffix "-wise" as in clock-wise - "in this way". So it seems to shift from seeing (witness) to doing, then to knowing over time.

Oddly, "wise" and "video" are cognates. Having seen YouTube, I find that ironic.

Oddly, "wise" and "video" are cognates. Having seen YouTube, I find that ironic. — Banno

Quote of the day right there.

How important do we think wisdom is in our lives, and do we agree with contemporary thinkers like John Vervaeke that we “suffer a wisdom famine in the West”? — Tom Storm

From a neurocognitive viewpoint, I would say the most useful definition is to oppose wisdom and cleverness. They relate to each other as the general and the specific. Or in brain terms, wisdom is accumulated useful habits and smartness is focused attention on a novel problem.

So wisdom comes with age and cleverness with youth. Being wise means hardly having to think about what is generally best while being smart is being able to leap to a particular answer.

These are not two unrelated qualities as any brain relies on its accumulated habits and its moment to moment attention. The best adjusted mind would need to do both things rather well. But if we indeed suffer a wisdom famine, I guess that could be blamed on the modern novelty feast.

Yet I don’t think that really makes for a penetrating analysis. If modern society was making us all smarter, then it would be achieving that same win/win balance of a greater collective wisdom and a greater individual genius.

It felt like that this project - born in the Enlightenment era - was making progress despite all its critics. But now with social media, Trump, AI, private equity, crypto, identity politics - the usual suspects - not so much.

But in general, wisdom and cleverness are a natural dichotomy that organises the brain. And so also organise society as our collective brain. We have something of major metaphysical importance that goes beyond personal neurology and speaks to our societies as the combinations of its institutions and its innovations.

There is something there to be debated - a philosophical imperative - when it comes to our politics, economics, and the humanities in general. How do the two sides of this equation play into each other, and is something new indeed occurring as a next phase of its evolution?

Can an uneducated person be wise? — Tom Storm

No. That said, there are many ways to educate ourselves. I don't mean academically. Reading, listening to other reputable people, and watching the actions of those you respect.

Does wisdom usually belong to one or two specific domains, or is it a broader category of integrated practice? To what extent does it involve practical skill, moral awareness, or both? — Tom Storm

Wisdom is whole. So, a wise person should have wisdom in all aspect of their life -- practical skills and moral awareness.

How important do we think wisdom is in our lives, and do we agree with contemporary thinkers like John Vervaeke that we “suffer a wisdom famine in the West”? — Tom Storm

Very important. I don't mean being a sage. Vervaeke could be right. Anytime someone points to the west, they mean the insatiable appetite to amass great wealth and conquer whatever it is to be conquered. At the expense of wisdom, there is suffering as a result of this behavior.

Cheers.

Here's the ngram.

We might continue to do the sort of analysis Austin suggested, looking to subtleties and distinctions in our ordinary use of the word "wisdom". To begin, consider wise versus smart. Wisdom has a moral implication, but being smart is fairly neutral. Or wise versus clever; wisdom is never immoral, but clever can be. We say someone is intelligent when they demonstrate analytic capacity but wise when they make good judgements.

To say of someone is wise is to acknowledge their authority, but not if they’re a wise guy. A good choice might be the convenient choice, but a wise choice may be better in the long term.

You can be too clever by half but never too wise. You can be very smart, but can you be very wise? You can be quite wise. The fragility of intensifiers indicates that wisdom is an absolute quantity.

We have folk wisdom, Divine Wisdom (complete with capitals), ancient wisdom, and conventional wisdom. Wisdom can be possessed, accumulated and passed down. And even occasionally applied.

Better to be wise than knowledgeable or intelligent, and we have artificial intelligence, not artificial wisdom. Wisdom is earned by suffering and experience, not so knowledge or intelligence. We say someone is intelligent when they demonstrate analytic capacity but wise when they show good judgement.

Is it more serious if I question your wisdom than if I question your judgement?

Austin advocated looking up the definition of a word in a dictionary, then looking up each word in the definition, and then each word in the subsequent definitions, until a group of related words was identified. I asked Claude to have a go at this for me, and it produced the following groups:

• Judgment/decision/conclusion/opinion (evaluative processes)
• Experience/knowledge/facts/information/understanding (epistemic foundation)
• Ability/skill (capacity)
• Good/sound/valid/reason/sense (normative approval)
• Quality/standard (measurement/evaluation)

It then suggested on this basis that wisdom sits at the intersection of out epistemic and normative judgements. This last corresponds to my own intuition. To be wise is to achieve a good outcome.

'The root for wise traces back to the Proto-Germanic wis-, meaning "to see" or "to know". This Germanic origin is seen in words like the Latin sapientia ("wisdom") and the Greek sophia ("wisdom"), both connecting to discerning or tasting meaning.' In Sanskrit, 'vidya' is 'wisdom' or 'true knowledge' (more often encountered in the negative i.e. 'avidya', signifies lack or absence of wisdom). Also from the root 'vid', meaning 'to know' or 'to see'.

do we agree with contemporary thinkers like John Vervaeke that we “suffer a wisdom famine in the West”? — Tom Storm

Sure. The Enlightement casts a shadow. I'm overall in agreement with Vervaeke's diagnosis, although bearing in mind it is presented via a series of 52 hour-long lectures, staring with the neolithic, so it's very hard to summarise. But I think his syncretic approach of trying to integrate insights from cognitive science, evolutionary theory, philosophy and spirituality is right on the mark.

I’m interested in reading member's thoughts on wisdom. — Tom Storm

Of all the personal qualities that a person can have - intelligence, character, integrity, experience, wisdom, temperament, maturity, personality, virtue - what wisdom and maturity have that set them apart from the others is distance, dispassion. They’ve seen everything before. I was thinking for a minute that maybe wisdom and maturity are the same thing, but that’s not right. I guess it’s more that maturity is a prerequisite for wisdom. Wisdom stands back and sees everything at once, how everything fits together, what’s going to come next.

Can an uneducated person be wise?
— Tom Storm
No. — L'éléphant

That’s ridiculous. I think it shows, perhaps, a lack of wisdom.

But in general, wisdom and cleverness are a natural dichotomy that organises the brain. And so also organise society as our collective brain. We have something of major metaphysical importance that goes beyond personal neurology and speaks to our societies as the combinations of its institutions and its innovations. — apokrisis

Interesting observations, thanks.

How do the two sides of this equation play into each other, and is something new indeed occurring as a next phase of its evolution? — apokrisis

That seems like a pertinent question.

Can an uneducated person be wise?
— Tom Storm
No. That said, there are many ways to educate ourselves. I don't mean academically. Reading, listening to other reputable people, and watching the actions of those you respect. — L'éléphant

You’re seeing education as something quite different from traditional book-smart or university-style learning. I imagine it is possible to be wise in some areas and foolish in others.

Wisdom has a moral implication, — Banno

Nice point. Hadn't thought about that but you're onto something,

You can be too clever by half but never too wise. You can be very smart, but can you be very wise? You can be quite wise. The fragility of intensifies indicates that wisdom is an absolute quantity.

We have folk wisdom, Divine Wisdom (complete with capitals), ancient wisdom, and conventional wisdom. Wisdom can be possessed, accumulated and passed down. And even occasionally applied.

Better to be wise than knowledgeable or intelligent, and we have artificial intelligence, not artificial wisdom. Wisdom is earned by suffering and experience, not so knowledge or intelligence. We say someone is intelligent when they demonstrate analytic capacity but wise when they show good judgement.

Is it more serious if I question your wisdom than if I question your judgement? — Banno

A lot to ponder here. I like it. The notion of judgement is clearly important.

I like it. — Tom Storm

Cheers. Austin's idea is to lay out the use of the word, get the lay of the land, so to speak. As opposed to just picking a definition and defending it to the hilt, the usual approach of the armchair warrior.

So as a first approximation, wisdom differs from intelligence, cleverness, being smart and so on, in its ethical implications,

There may be some benefit in further considering why wisdom fails intensification. Dose this show that it is valuable for its own sake?

Sure. The Enlightement casts a shadow. I'm overall in agreement with Vervaeke's diagnosis, although bearing in mind it is presented via a series of 52 hour-long lectures, staring with the neolithic, so it's very hard to summarise. — Wayfarer

His initial interview with Alex O'Connor seems to be a good way to cut through to his primary focus.

I personally struggle to accept that today’s people are intrinsically unhappier and/or more foolish than previous generations or eras, despite the popularity of this trope with everyone from New Age folk to MAGA supporters.

What about spiritual wisdom? A separate category?

They’ve seen everything before. I was thinking for a minute that maybe wisdom and maturity are the same thing, but that’s not right. I guess it’s more that maturity is a prerequisite for wisdom. Wisdom stands back and sees everything at once, how everything fits together, what’s going to come next. — T Clark

I think that's a nice formulation. I work with a lot of people just out of university, in their mid-20s. Every so often I meet someone who is simply wise, who shows a capacity for moral discernment and prudent decision making more typical of someone mature with a lot of experience. My suspicion is that some wisdom is innate, or at least can be cultivated early.

— Tom Storm
No.
— L'éléphant

That’s ridiculous. I think it shows, perhaps, a lack of wisdom. — T Clark

My initial reaction was similar, but I think he needs to explain this further. He is construing a wider understanding of education, which would include people without degrees and fancy paperwork.

I asked Claude to have a go at this for me, and it produced the following groups:

Judgment/decision/conclusion/opinion (evaluative processes)
Experience/knowledge/facts/information/understanding (epistemic foundation)
Ability/skill (capacity)
Good/sound/valid/reason/sense (normative approval)
Quality/standard (measurement/evaluation)

It then suggested on this basis that wisdom sits at the intersection of out epistemic and normative judgements. This last corresponds to my own intuition. To be wise is to achieve a good outcome. — Banno

Yes, this corresponds to my intuition on the subject. My initial thinking about wisdom led me to words like skill, common sense, judgment, measured.

Is wisdom, when demonstrated, appreciated by others? Does it cut through? Is it truly valued? I imagine the answer is: it depends…

Is there a known individual or individuals today whom we might call wise? Or is wisdom entirely in the eye of the beholder and shaped by their values?

There may be some benefit in further considering why wisdom fails intensification. Dose this show that it is valuable for its own sake? — Banno

I'm not sure what you mean by 'fails intensification'.

I personally struggle to accept that today’s people are intrinsically unhappier and/or more foolish than previous generations or eras... — Tom Storm

To my eye that's more an excuse for rejecting more recent ethical values. I spent yesterday at a Voluntary Assisted Dying conference, and came away with an overwhelming belief that VAD is a moral good; one that would have been impossible to implement until recently. Quite the opposite of what proposes?

Is wisdom, when demonstrated, appreciated by others? — Tom Storm

Not sure. - but it does seem that while one might recognise wisdom in another, supposing oneself to be wise is... problematic. It's something one attributes to another.

I spent yesterday at a Voluntary Assisted Dying conference, and came away with an overwhelming belief that VAD is a moral good; one that was have been impossible to implement until recently. — Banno

Agree. I recently had an acquaintance put this into practice. It was a good thing.

...fails intensification — Tom Storm

It's just that it seems odd to say someone is a little bit wise. You got it or you don't.

Do you agree?

Do you agree? — Banno

Well, here's the thing. Aren't there folk who are wise in some areas and dunces in others? Or does 'proper' wisdom need to be all encompassing?

Aren't there folk who are wise in some areas and dunces in others? — Tom Storm

Yes, I think so. I've been attempting to get AI to find instances of reference to "degrees of wisdom", without much success - using terms such as "greater wisdom," "much wisdom," "little wisdom". I'm looking for some sort of evidence, rather than just making shit up. My hypothesis is that if one is wise in some area, that's an end to it; there's no more or less involved. So absence of evidence confirms my hypothesis... :grimace:

We say "much more intelligent" and "a lot of knowledge", but not so "much more wise" or "A lot of wisdom" See this Ngram.

We say someone is intelligent when they demonstrate analytic capacity but wise when they show good judgement. — Banno

:up: Intelligence decides among decidables, only wisdom among undecidables.

Cheers.

The apparent contradiction - deciding what is undecidable - cuts to the heart of what it is to be rational. My Masters thesis was on organisations making decisions despite their being undecidable. But only the good undecidable decisions are wise... :wink:

The root for wise traces back to the Proto-Germanic wis-, meaning "to see" or "to know". This Germanic origin is seen in words like the Latin sapientia ("wisdom") and the Greek sophia ("wisdom"), both connecting to discerning or tasting meaning.' In Sanskrit, 'vidya' is 'wisdom' or 'true knowledge' (more often encountered in the negative i.e. 'avidya', signifies lack or absence of wisdom). Also from the root 'vid', meaning 'to know' or 'to see'. — Wayfarer

In Russian, this also finds its development. "Видеть" (videt') - that is, to See and "Ведать" (vedat') - that is, to Know.

Both words come from the Old Slavonic root вѣдѣти, which means "to know, to be familiar with something."

My Masters thesis was on organisations making decisions despite their being undecidable. But only the good undecidable decisions are wise... — Banno

Oh, say some more about that - context perhaps. Are you saying that operational pragmatism means having to make decisions whether the matter is decidable or not? I've certainly been there.

Fair suck of the sauce bottle. That was twenty five years ago.

It was about having to make a decision despite not having sufficient information, yes, but also about supposing that such decisions were the logical consequence of consideration of the available information - the conviction that one is choosing the best answer when in truth one is imposing one solution amongst many. That imposition is the ethical aspect.

Every so often I meet someone who is simply wise, who shows a capacity for moral discernment and prudent decision making more typical of someone mature with a lot of experience. My suspicion is that some wisdom is innate, or at least can be cultivated early. — Tom Storm

As someone who came to whatever wisdom I have later in life, it’s possible my definition is tilted. Perhaps we should add character to my short list of the most important factors influencing wisdom. It might’ve taken a while for maturity to counterbalance whatever weaknesses in character I have.

You’re seeing education as something quite different from traditional book-smart or university-style learning. I imagine it is possible to be wise in some areas and foolish in others. — Tom Storm

No, I'm seeing education as not just schooling and formal instruction.

That’s ridiculous. I think it shows, perhaps, a lack of wisdom. — T Clark

"Uneducated" to me means no formal schooling and/or no instruction from the wise people.

Of all the personal qualities that a person can have - intelligence, character, integrity, experience, wisdom, temperament, maturity, personality, virtue - what wisdom and maturity have that set them apart from the others is distance, dispassion. They’ve seen everything before. I was thinking for a minute that maybe wisdom and maturity are the same thing, but that’s not right. I guess it’s more that maturity is a prerequisite for wisdom. Wisdom stands back and sees everything at once, how everything fits together, what’s going to come next. — T Clark

Well said. This is what I have in mind.

So "uneducated" to me means no formal schooling and/or no instruction from the wise people. — L'éléphant

I still think you’re clearly wrong.

I still think you’re clearly wrong. — T Clark

I don't share your sentiment. One who does not work hard on learning at all is uneducated and could not be wise.

- the conviction that one is choosing the best answer when in truth one is imposing one solution amongst many. That imposition is the ethical aspect. — Banno

Got ya. Government in a nutshell.

No, I'm seeing education as not just schooling and formal instruction. — L'éléphant

:up:

to me means no formal schooling and/or no instruction from the wise people. — L'éléphant

I wonder if it is possible to become wise by learning from the foolish? After all, with discernment, watching a fool and what happens to them can be very instructive in learning what not to do.

I wonder if it is possible to become wise by learning from the foolish? After all, with discernment, watching a fool and what happens to them can be very instructive in learning what not to do. — Tom Storm

Ah, you are forgetting one principle -- this is parallel to what you're saying "how do you know there's an error in a process?" You know there's an error when you've seen the correct result from that process and now another person using the same process did not arrive at the same result.
You could only learn from the foolish if you know the difference.