That's exactly what happened in Sweden. — Benkei

That's what the article is about.

Violence against prostitutes hasn’t risen. No prostitutes were murdered in Sweden last year; in Germany, where prostitution is legal, 70 were killed by pimps or buyers.

Enforcement hasn’t increased policing costs, even though there is a prostitution unit as well as a trafficking unit staffed by 25 detectives and a social worker.

Prostitution hasn’t been eliminated, but surveys indicate that the percentage of Swedish men who buy sex dropped to 7.4 per cent in 2014 from 13.6 per cent in 1996; only 0.8 per cent said that they had bought sexual services within the last year. (In the United States, one in five men reports buying sex. There is no available Canadian data.)

One interesting aspect of the law is that fines are based on income. If the buyer is unemployed, the minimum fine is the equivalent of about $400. For everyone else, the maximum is 50 days’ worth of income.

It seems to me a more socially responsible way to deal with the issue than many other countries have chosen.

Is sex "work"?
Is sex "an industry"? — BC

Sex necessarily involves work from at least one participant.
Why would sex be an industry? You mean sex for money? If so, how could it not be an industry?

Well sexual relations are in demand and thus can act as a commodity. Trading in that commodity can thus constitute a business. Referring to the business as a whole would make it an industry.

As to legalization or at least decriminalization (which I prefer), a good balance is to prosecute for the crime of pandering, but not for prostitution

I think this gets at the "Treadmill Effect," for certain words, whereby if a world is used for a marginalized group, regardless of whether the group first applies the name to itself, it eventually gains derogatory connotations. Then the term must be replaced by a new one. Longer terms like "sex worker," fair better here because long, generic sounding terms don't make for good slurs when slinging invective around.

E.g., the NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, wasn't trying to be derogatory with the term "colored people," which only later became widely considered inappropriate. Of course, more recently, "people of color," became popular again, so now it seems more acceptable again.

I encountered this in my work with people with developmental disabilities and brain injuries. Some state departments still use the term "retarded," in their name, largely because no widely appropriate term has come to replace it. Retarded grew to have negative connotations, to the extent that it is even awkward to talk about "retarded economic growth," or "the Principle of Retarded Action," in physics. IMO, this grows out of childhood experiences of being told that certain words are wholly off limits, which then taints the word for all contexts, even if it has previously been used is contexts that no one finds offensive. "Oriental," is another such a term.

We also have some turns of phrase that sour even if they aren't derogatory. E.g., William Durant's Story of Civilization is a broadly liberal and open minded project, but the early works (from the 30s-40s) seem quite awkward when they refer to Europe as "the white man's world," or even "Christendom."

This sort of thing is different from out and out slurs, which never were proposed as acceptable terms.

Of course, if you think prostitution is wholly inappropriate, then arguably "sex worker," is also doing the same thing that a term like "collateral damage," is doing. It's trying to make something morally repugnant more abstract so that people don't think about what the term actually entails.

Personally, I'm on the fence. I get the argument that sex work shouldn't not be seen as necessarily different from therapy, which also involves close intimacy for pay, or massage therapy/physical therapy, etc., which also involves close physical contact for pay. I just don't think it totally works, precisely because how prostitution is normally preformed and because reproduction is necessarily more intimate than other forms of physical contact.

That said, if I was going to make one thing illegal, prostitution, where people interact with another living person in some regulated, controlled environment, versus pornography, which I'd argue objectifies people even more and often tends to gravitate towards less respectful depictions of sex, I'd make the pornography illegal first. Plus, it's not like the porn industry isn't known for being generally morally bankrupt either. Prostitution seems less alienating for both parties to me.

Prostitution seems less alienating for both parties to me. — Count Timothy von Icarus

That's a very interesting observation. Having considered it for about five minutes, I'm very much inclined to agree. The client can actually have a conversation with a person hired to provide some form of sexual service. Those services vary greatly as to nature, purpose and quality. They certainly can't all be lumped into the same category of interaction. The client can even have some kind of relationship with an inflatable, virtual or robotic surrogate.
Some of these issues were explored in the television series Boston Legal
But watching dirty movies is entirely passive; that really is a commodity to buy, own, use up and throw away. And it doesn't engage the user on any but the most primal level .

There are ways of getting around laws.

Instead of buying sex you buy a very expensive carrot. And the buyer of a very expensive carrot is given the option of sex for free. You are purchasing a carrot, not sexual services.

Similar to getting a free muffin if you buy a cup of coffee. But you can't buy a muffin by itself.

Instead of buying sex you buy a very expensive carrot. And the buyer of a very expensive carrot is given the option of sex for free. — Agree to Disagree

Sounds a bit unwieldy for street prostitution. I mean, where would she keep all those carrots?

Well sexual relations are in demand and thus can act as a commodity. Trading in that commodity can thus constitute a business. Referring to the business as a whole would make it an industry. — LuckyR

I'm not sure if that means sex is an institution or that sex can be viewed from the perspective of institutions.

Well since the majority of sexual relations are NOT a commodity, the latter.

The shift in language from “prostitute” to “sex worker” reflects a deeper societal change in how we view autonomy, dignity, and labor. Referring to it as “sex work” acknowledges that it is, indeed, work -often under complex and challenging circumstances. Like any other service-based profession, it involves negotiation, skill, and boundaries. The term “industry” also feels appropriate because it includes not only full-service sex workers but also those in online platforms, stripping, and adult films. Recognizing it as an industry gives space for discussions about labor rights, safety, and respect, rather than just moral judgment or legal status

Recognizing it as an industry gives space for discussions about labor rights, safety, and respect, rather than just moral judgment or legal status. — PatriciaCollins

It would be hard for some to recognise and respect a sexual worker. For this reason, it is more important to give them [the prostitutes] a legal status. This can defend them from people who don't understand that prostitution is actually a job. Furthermore, it would help the girls to be more independent from the "pimps" or club owners. So, in my humble opinion, legal status goes before abstract ethical actions.

If someone does not think prostitution is a legitimate job, in the same way they do not think raising one's own children is not a legitimate job, that's fine by me. It's contentious.

I personally support the rights of sex workers and the autonomy that comes with engaging in it safely. That means I support the legal frameworks that protect and, at times, encourage sex work to occur.

That said, I am firmly in the camp that going to OnlyFans instead of getting a skilled job is absolutely a cop-out and not something we can sufficiently compare as "work". This seems evidenced by the lack of reasonable responses from OnlyFans models when questioned about their work.

And no. Being good at sex, or presentation of sex is not a 'skill' the way vocational skills are skills. Yes, one could learn carpentry to build only their own home. One can have sex purely in private circumstances. But doing carpentry for someone else is a massively different thing that selling your sexual content online. Particularly if it is essentially of your private sex life (couples who sell content, eg).

interesting opinion

Two spam bots in the same thread? Do you two know each other or is this just a wild coincidence?

I just read this thread. I remember how in rhetoric classes at the university we spent the whole semester chewing over 2 questions: 1. Should prostitution be legalized? 2. Should the death penalty be used/not used as a form of punishment?

At alumni meetings we always remember these questions with warmth and continue the discussions.

It is interesting that over the years, most of them have changed their minds more than once.

At the university we played out scenes of a trial. I was the "defense attorney" for prostitution. I managed to convince the jury then =)

The shift in language from “prostitute” to “sex worker” reflects a deeper societal change in how we view autonomy, dignity, and labor. Referring to it as “sex work” acknowledges that it is, indeed, work -often under complex and challenging circumstances. — PatriciaCollins

The term also normalizes/de-stygamtizes it. Somewhat. That is both good and bad. It's good we're finally accepting that the sex trade will always be with us, that the sex workers are people too, and deserving of the respect every human deserves.

That said, I am firmly in the camp that going to OnlyFans instead of getting a skilled job is absolutely a cop-out and not something we can sufficiently compare as "work". — AmadeusD

Yes. This is the problem, and it does not seem like a long-term career. It would be good for sex-workers to recognize the relatively short term nature of the career and plan accordingly. I suspect that's rarely done, although I did read about a nursing student who was using sex-work to fund her education. Good for her!

I think professional sports of all sorts are prostitution; why single out sex? — unenlightened

I don't think this reply received the attention it deserves.

It's like because its trite, immature and ignores the specific criteria that causes prostitution to obtain. Also, attempting to denigrate other pursuits by calling them prostitution(which is where this sort of thing comes from) both continues the negative stigmas around sex work by trying to make other pursuits look bad by association, and also illustrates that one isn't sufficiently thinking about what they're saying, to begin with.

Then again, maybe not aye :roll:

I know a few of those examples, and the two i know personally have successfully (to their knowledge) remained anonymous. Absolutely boss shit getting through school like that and hten being a truly productive member of society without debt.

It's like because its trite, immature and ignores the specific criteria that causes prostitution to obtain. — AmadeusD

Love your sense of irony. Is professional sport that bad?

Oh Banno.

When you're older, you'll understand this a bit better.

I hope not.

I actually like the idea of putting professional sports, and similar practices that commodify the body for entertainment (like modeling), in the same basket as prostitution.

I think professional sports of all sorts are prostitution; why single out sex?
— unenlightened
I don't think this reply received the attention it deserves. — Banno

If people can't stomach something, it seems mean to try and ram it down their throats. :nerd:

Then all physical jobs, of any kind, are prostitution. But that is obviously, and clearly ridiculous. If for no other reason than "prostitute" serves the same function as "builder" or "football player".

A prostitute is not a football player. Vice verse.

A prostitute is not a football player. — AmadeusD

Really! Who knew?

The term also normalizes/de-stygamtizes it. Somewhat. That is both good and bad. — Relativist

That said, I am firmly in the camp that going to OnlyFans instead of getting a skilled job is absolutely a cop-out and not something we can sufficiently compare as "work". — AmadeusD

I am tolerant of other people's sexual behavior. Part of this comes from liberal thinking about behavior, and part of it comes from my own sometimes shameless promiscuous sexual behavior (way in the past--I've aged out of the scene). Whores, hoes, prostitutes, sex workers: is that an ascending scale of value? Or is it all the same?

I am tolerant of commercial sexual behavior, but I don't think it is in the same category as 'normal work'. And I don't see the ardent advocates for the dignity of prostitution as a job ever being tempted to take one of those dignified sex worker jobs.

There is sometimes no dignity whatsoever for the terms of labor for a w, h, p, or sw who has aged out of the better terms of work. Having to solicit blow jobs for $20 is more like whoring--most of us would find it a severe humiliation; it is not dignified, but it is work for certain. Performing sex from an expensive out-call service with much higher pay and more comfort on the job is better sex work, much better whoring, or classier prostitution. But no matter how well paid...

There is a scene in Butterfield 8 where Elizabeth Taylor's character declares, "Mother, I am a WHORE." This is not low self-esteem talking. This is a high class prostitute recognizing the reality of her life.

Would people who think that "sex work" is dignified labor be willing to consider it as a temp, short term, or career job? Well look - you can run your own business (maybe); maintain your own hours of work (usually at night, but not always); be free of income tax; meet interesting people. You have the option of refusing tasks that you don't like (which might be bad for business, at least). Special outfits are not necessary. Wear what you like.

If W, h, p, and sw were like any other job, one wouldn't expect to age out of it quickly. Ballet dancers don't last long--their feet fail them first. But then they can teach, direct, or shift into some other area of performing arts. Lateral mobility is difficult in the sex business. Vertical mobility is mostly downward. It doesn't look good on a resume and recommendations are hard to get. Tired sex workers are just done. Singers and actors, on the other hand -- and truck drivers, programmers, tax accountants, or nurses, can work in their fields and advance until normal retirement.

The terms of work for w, h, p, and sw are not dignified. It generally involves the insertion of a stranger's penis into one's orifices in a range of ways that might very well be unpleasant. Is there some other job that is similar?

Having sex that you want might involve the same act that obtains between a whore and his or her customer, but does anyone value the two acts the same?

Really! Who knew? — BC

I don't see anything that debars sex workers from playing football, should they so choose. The question seems more to be as to whether doing so constitutes a change in profession, or not.

Yes, but whores usually don't go in for a lot of batting practice, probably didn't play football in school, didn't golf, or go out for track and field. So, while they COULD become football players (or golfers) there's a learning curve that gets in the way of your average hooker playing adult children's games in the big leagues.

I appreciated Unenlightened's comment about professional sports being a variety of prostitution. It also seems unnatural to pay men (or women) many millions of dollars to play children's games as if it mattered who last had the ball.

There is an element of subservience in many jobs. Your perform as much work as they can get out of you for the least possible amount of pay. The worker is usually not a free agent on the job but is subject to numerous restrictions, a few of which may make sense. If the boss doesn't like you (for any reason) you can be fired without cause (the legal term is "employment at will").

So prostitution sucks (literally) and so does the typical job.

...whores usually don't go in for a lot of batting practice — BC

I wouldn't know. There are other more obvious parallels - an enthusiastic amateur league, for one. And I am given to understand that there is a ready market for watching sex workers doing what it is they do, even as for cricket and athletics and swimming. Perhaps the missing ingredient is nothing more than finding suitable sponsorship deals.

I am tolerant of commercial sexual behavior, but I don't think it is in the same category as 'normal work'. And I don't see the ardent advocates for the dignity of prostitution as a job ever being tempted to take one of those dignified sex worker jobs. — BC

Yes, good point.

there is a ready market for watching sex workers doing what it is they do — Banno

Now you're cooking.