https://www.tkm.kit.edu/downloads/TKM1_2011_more_is_different_PWA.pdf

The thinking is defined as a process in which we work on known ideas with the aim of creating a new idea — MoK

Could you give some examples of known ideas and new ideas? How does it work?

Thanks for the article. I will read it when I have time.

Could you give some examples of known ideas and new ideas? How does it work? — Corvus

When I say "cup", you immediately realize what I am talking about since the word refers to an idea. The sentence "the cup is on the table" contains many words; each word refers to an idea. The sentence, however, refers to a new idea, which in this case is a situation.

When I say "cup", you immediately realize what I am talking about since the word refers to an idea. The sentence "the cup is on the table" contains many words; each word refers to an idea. The sentence, however, refers to a new idea, which in this case is a situation. — MoK

There is nothing new about any of those words. Everyone in the world knows what "cup" is, knows what "table" is. You were just uttering a sentence from what you saw. That is just giving a description of the content of your perception. New ideas should be something that is absolutely new, so no one knew what it was, no one has seen or heard about it before in history. That is new idea.

So, I am not able to accept the definition you provided. Wrong definition of the concept leads to misunderstanding and confusion in the arguments and discussions.

My point was that a sentence has more content than separate words that make up the sentence. We couldn't possibly communicate any new idea if a sentence does not have such a property. If you are looking for an absolutely new idea, then please consider the conclusion of the OP, namely, AI cannot think.

'As of lately a fierce debate has started, even in the public domain, regarding the potential benefits and dangers of artificial intelligence. From our understanding of evolution described in Chapter 3, it is quite easy to understand this debate: Please recollect that there are two attributes of systems that could be used to understand different classes of systems: a classification based on the interaction between a system and a collection of data, and a classification based on the interaction between a system and its purpose. Both these provide an understanding of the evolution of systems. It is my perception that artificial intelligence has progressed quite well in the classes that require interactions with collections of data. It is a very valid and open question if or when artificial intelligence will obtain the capability of abstract thought (Class 7 systems) and even surpass humans.This will not necessarily keep me awake at night, perhaps we humans can learn something from artificial intelligence with this capability. But then, in the worst-case scenario, this might lead to a world war that would surpass any war in the history of Homo sapiens. What most definitely keeps me awake at night is the possibility that artificial intelligence might obtain the capability of survival (Class 3 systems). p117 How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence.

Please recollect that there are two attributes of systems that could be used to understand different classes of systems: a classification based on the interaction between a system and a collection of data, and a classification based on the interaction between a system and its purpose. — Pieter R van Wyk

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by each classification?

It is my perception that artificial intelligence has progressed quite well in the classes that require interactions with collections of data. — Pieter R van Wyk

I cannot tell.

It is a very valid and open question if or when artificial intelligence will obtain the capability of abstract thought (Class 7 systems) and even surpass humans. — Pieter R van Wyk

AI cannot have abstract thought since it lacks access to the ideas necessary for imagination and abstraction.

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by each classification? — MoK

From a fundamental definition of a system, based on first principles, it is possible to identify seven classes of systems. Five classes are identified by considering the interactions between a system and a collection of data and three classes are identified by considering the interactions between a system and its purpose. The first class in both classifications are equal thus there (currently) exist seven classes of systems. Since these classes emerge consequently and subsequently, based on new identifiable capabilities, it is possible to form a theory of evolution by combining the two classifications. AI still lacks only two capabilities that humans have: survival and abstraction. If (or when) AI gains both these two capabilities we humans will loose our place on the apex of evolution. Chapter 4 - Evolution of Classes and the Demarcation Meridian. How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence.

Five classes are identified by considering the interactions between a system and a collection of data — Pieter R van Wyk

I don't understand what the interactions between a system and a collection of data mean.

three classes are identified by considering the interactions between a system and its purpose. — Pieter R van Wyk

I don't understand what the interactions between a system and its purpose mean.

AI still lacks only two capabilities that humans have: survival and abstraction. If (or when) AI gains both these two capabilities we humans will loose our place on the apex of evolution. — Pieter R van Wyk

That is a big IF. As I argued in the OP, AI does not have access to ideas since it is mindless, so it lacks abstraction.

That is a big IF. As I argued in the OP, AI does not have access to ideas since it is mindless, so it lacks abstraction. — MoK

We agree that AI lacks abstraction - on this we are saying the same thing. I am not sure what "big IF' you are referring to, all I am saying is that if (or when) AI gains this capability then we humans will loose our place on the apex of evolution. You might agree or disagree with this conclusion.

I don't understand what the interactions between a system and a collection of data mean. — MoK

I don't understand what the interactions between a system and its purpose mean. — MoK

Some classes of systems have the capability to interact with data (data being a collection of representations describing interactions), thus they have a perception of data and some classes of systems have a perception of their reason of existence (their purpose) thus they can interact with their purpose.

Being under the sword of Damocles called ostracisation, I might suggest that you read How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence, it could contribute even more to your understanding.

We agree that AI lacks abstraction - on this we are saying the same thing. — Pieter R van Wyk

Cool.

I am not sure what "big IF' you are referring to, all I am saying is that if (or when) AI gains this capability then we humans will loose our place on the apex of evolution. You might agree or disagree with this conclusion. — Pieter R van Wyk

Given the fact that AI lacks abstraction, AI cannot come up with a new idea. Therefore, AI cannot replace us at the pinnacle of evolution. Creating new ideas is fundamental in the evolution of the human species. Humans will evolve further, most probably without an end. I, however, think that AI will reach a threshold in its advancement, so it would be extremely difficult to make an AI that is more intelligent than former AIs.

Given the fact that AI lacks abstraction, AI cannot come up with a new idea. Therefore, AI cannot replace us at the pinnacle of evolution. Creating new ideas is fundamental in the evolution of the human species. Humans will evolve further, most probably without an end. I, however, think that AI will reach a threshold in its advancement, so it would be extremely difficult to make an AI that is more intelligent than former AIs. — MoK

:sweat: None of us knows what would happen in the future. I can argue that: "AI cannot come up with a new idea" - until it comes up with a new idea. That is how evolution takes place, not so? Sometime, through the evolution of our Universe, some animal had the first abstract thought. Before this event abstraction did not exist - after this event it does exist.

Methinks only the future knows the answer to this question.

Thank you for this conversation.

Okay, thank you for sharing your thoughts.