• Jamal
    11k
    Good summaries!Moliere

    Thanks :smile:

    But, then, I also may just be thinking that because it gets along with my own notions, and Adorno really does think that philosophy is superior in the sense that the qualitative distinction is what "grounds" the quantitative method -- being able to differentiate what something is from what it is not is the basis of being able to count and individuate, i.e. think quantitatively.Moliere

    Yeah, but in his utopian mode I think he would say not that philosophy is superior, but that all thinking, scientific-empirical and otherwise, stands to benefit from this wider kind of reason that doesn't leave qualities behind. Like I was saying recently, he doesn't think that philosophy and empirical science are separate domains.

    But given the state of things, a kind of philosophical elitism might be apparent. He really tries to persuade us that it's not that (which is kind of funny considering that many of the people who knew him and worked with him said he was a genius).

    So, yes to this:

    a generic defense of philosophical thinking in a scientistic societyMoliere
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    Another dialectical twist. Does it mean that only in our alienated modern society in which everyone must be an exclusive specialist of some sort could there be people, like Adorno and his peers, capable of focusing intently and deeply on the qualities of things? If so, this is a natural follow-on from the "Privilege" section.Jamal

    I will offer my opinion here, but our modes of interpretation have diverged significantly, so much so that unless you adopt the principles which you recently disputed, what I say will look far off track.

    As discussed in the prior sections, our object is now the subject. He says we yield to this principle. "To yield to the object is so much as to do justice to its qualitative moments." Kantian principles have demonstrated that we have no immediate access to any supposed independent objects, therefore if we want a true immediate understanding of the object, we need to look internally, and look at oneself as an object. This means that I am primarily an object, and I need to yield to this fact and understand myself as an object. This perspective will provide a basis for understanding that this object is also a subject, the objective being prior to the subjective though. Primarily, the person, myself, must be removed from the social context, within which the word "subject" applies, and understood as an "individuated object".

    Form this perspective the qualitative, based in non-conceptual sensations and feelings, is prior to the quantitative which is conceptual and therefore mediated by the social context. In Plato, "the good" (qualitative) replaces the Pythagorean "One" (quantitative) as the first principle.

    There is no quantifiable insight which does not first receive its
    meaning, its terminus ad quem [Latin: end-point], in the retranslation
    into the qualitative.

    Now the sentence at question:

    The qualitative subject awaits the potential of its qualities in the thing, not its transcendental
    residue, although the subject is strengthened solely thereto by means of restrictions based on the division of labor.

    The subject awaits the qualities within itself, the thing, as sensations and feelings. The "transcendental residue" is what is left from that qualitative moment and communicated to the social context, thereby transcending the individual. The division of labour has produced certain restrictions which enhance this capacity of the subject to experience its own qualitative aspect, it's being an object amongst other objects.

    Notice the next sentence:
    The more meanwhile its own reactions are denounced as presumably merely subjective, the more the qualitative determinations in things escape cognition.
    The qualitative moment is dismissed within the social context, as "subjective", and therefore is neglected and escapes cognition. This relates back to what he said about truth in "Privilege of experience".

    The "capability of distinction" is a relation between the nonconceptual object, and the conceptual subject, within the individual person. It is a judgement the person carries out.

    After this Adorno describes how Hegel misrepresented the individual consciousness as requiring the concept for its continuity. This he did from the intent of disempowering the individual spirit. And he proceeds to explain how the individual, being in its primary sense, an object, becomes a subject.
  • Jamal
    11k
    The qualitative moment is dismissed within the social context, as "subjective", and therefore is neglected and escapes cognition. This relates back to what he said about truth in "Privilege of experience"Metaphysician Undercover

    Yep.

    The "capability of distinction" is a relation between the nonconceptual object, and the conceptual subject, within the individual person. It is a judgement the person carries out.Metaphysician Undercover

    Although I obviously don’t think this relation itself is “within the individual person,” it’s true that Adorno is interested, in the introduction, in intellectual experience, so the precise way that the philosophical subject relates to the object is the main focus at this stage. So I think we probably agree on at least this: that he wants to see subjective qualitative judgement make a comeback.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    Although I obviously don’t think this relation itself is “within the individual person,” it’s true that Adorno is interested, in the introduction, in intellectual experience, so the precise way that the philosophical subject relates to the object is the main focus at this stage. So I think we probably agree on at least this: that he wants to see subjective qualitative judgement make a comeback.Jamal

    We are essentially in agreement, other than some fine details about word usage which creates the appearance of inconsistency to me. The principal dispute I have is concerning your desire to portray the state, or society in general, as "objective". This I believe derives from Hegel's representing the state as the evolution of the Idea, which he bases in absolute Spirit. So that form of "objectivity" which is based in absolute Spirit, and consisting of concepts and ideology, is really in truth, subjective because these are evolving aspects of the subject rather than having an eternal base of absolute Spirit.

    So Adorno is showing that we should really base "the object" in the opposite pole, the experience of the individual, and this pays respect to the spirit of the individual, as objective, instead of the absolute Spirit which is a theologically based falsity, for him. But now with your usage, we have a duality of "objective", which is confusing and may produce ambiguity, equivocation, and mislead us, even though your usage is the conventional, as derived from Hegelian ideology.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    Think of the "object" as the grounding, what objectifies or substantiates the philosophy. Hegel has the false ground of idealism, absolute spirit, which when analyzed produces the infinite regress of bottomlessness. So we need to follow Marx's lead, and flip things over, putting the ground in the individual, making the individual an object with relations to other objects. This provides a true ground, for true objectivity.
  • Jamal
    11k


    I'm glad we found some agreement MU.

    However, I don't know what to say about the other stuff. You didn't like what I had to say before, but now you're bringing it up again. I fear that if I respond, you'll complain that I'm lecturing you again. Ultimately, I agree that subjects are also objects, but the rest of your interpretation of "the object" makes little sense to me, and since trying to address it before was counter-productive and thus even worse than a waste of time, I'm not willing to engage with it any more.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    Before anyone cuts me off with heavy criticism, I'll go a bit further to explain the need for the turn around. Plato exposed this need with "the good". The guiding principle is always intention, and this produces another sense of "object" or "objective", the goal. If we base the state in the abstract Idea, absolute Spirit, then the guiding intention is equivalent to the will of God. But we have no access to God's intention, so we haven't a clue as to what the true objective (goal) is. When we flip things around, then we have the intent of individual human beings to deal with, as what guides us. Since we have no access to God's intent it cannot be what guides us, but I have access to my own intent, so this must be what guides me, rather than God's intent.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    I'm not willing to engage with it any more.Jamal

    That's good. We'll just continue, I'll speak my words, you speak yours. When we clash we clash, so be it.
  • Jamal
    11k


    On the other hand...

    In an introduction to Adorno's essay, "Subject and Object," Ruth Groff succinctly summarizes his view:

    Subject and object cannot be pried apart, he insists. To begin with, subjects are always and only embodied: there is no such thing as a subject that is not also an object. Transcendental subjectivity itself therefore turns out to presuppose material objects that are not themselves synthesized a priori by pure reason. For if there were no such objects, there would be no bearers of reason to do the synthesizing. Admittedly, there exist objects that are not subjects—and in this respect the relationship between subject and object is a-symmetrical. Adorno famously refers to this a-symmetry as the “primacy of the object.” But of the objects that are not subjects, many are artifacts that are made by subjects. Moreover—and more important for Adorno—any object that is an object for a subject is thereby directly mediated, for the subject, by the socially-mediated subjectivity that is his or her embodied consciousness. Even if one does not want to go as far as Kant does in the Critique of Pure Reason in saying that it is transcendental subjectivity that constitutes phenomenal objects as objects, nevertheless it would seem to be that, for subjects, there is no access to objects that bypasses subjectivity. Indeed, the very concept of pure materiality presupposes a subject to conceive it. In Negative Dialectics, Adorno suggests that the most basic epistemic challenge is to ensure that the unavoidable mediation of objects by subjects, in our experience of them, does as little damage as possible. — Frankfurt School Writings on Epistemology, Ontology, and Method

    Assuming this is correct (I think it is), am I wrong in thinking it might help us get past our current impasse?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k

    I'm always open to adjust my view point as I read the text further, and often forces me to reread. So I don't know if we can get past the impasse at this point. How my understanding stands right now, I agree with the first part of your quoted secondary reference, all subjects are objects. However, when the subject views oneself as an object, "subjectivity" becomes an ambiguous term, because it doesn't distinguish between the person as an object and the person as a subject. Then, the part of the person, which the person understands through reflection on oneself as an object, e.g. feelings and qualitative value judgements, are said to be "subjective", while things that the person as a subject understands, mathematical judgements etc., are said to be objective. So this is reverse of what the person sees in oneself as an object.

    My interpretation of what I've read so far of ND indicates to me that Adorno is assigning priority to the objective (nonconceptual) aspect of the human person )feelings sensations), as immediate to the person, and the conceptual as mediated through societal justification of the concepts, e.g. ideology and education. I provided the quotes to support that interpretation, and it is further supported by his claims that the qualitative (nonconceptual sensations) are prior to, and underlying, the quantitative (mathematics). We do not need to agree on this.

    But notice that Adorno singles out the philosopher, just like Plato's cave allegory, as an individual who sees beyond the conventional, or traditional ideology, which the sheep (Adorno), or cave dwellers (Plato) accept. In both cases, for some reason it is incumbent on the philosopher to open the eyes of the others.

    In the Privilege of Experience:
    To those who have had the undeserved good fortune to not be
    completely adjusted in their inner intellectual composition to the
    prevailing norms – a stroke of luck, which they often enough have to
    pay for in terms of their relationship to the immediate environment –
    it is incumbent to make the moralistic and, as it were, representative
    effort to express what the majority, for whom they say it, are not
    capable of seeing or, to do justice to reality, will not allow themselves
    to see.

    In Quality and the Individuated:
    The Party is supposed to
    have a cognitive power a priori superior to that of every individual
    solely due to the number of its members, even if it is terrorized or
    blinded.
    The isolated individual [Individuum] however,
    unencumbered by the ukase, may at times perceive the objectivity more
    clearly than a collective, which in any case is only the ideology of its
    committees.
  • Jamal
    11k
    Introduction: QUALITY AND THE INDIVIDUATED (ii)

    This contingency meanwhile is not so radical as the criteria of scientivism would wish. Hegel was peculiarly inconsistent when he arraigned the individual consciousness, the staging-grounds of intellectual experience, which animated his work, as the contingent and that which is limited. This is comprehensible only out of the desire to disempower the critical moment which is tied to the individual Spirit. In its particularization he felt the contradictions between the concept and the particular. Individual consciousness is always, and with reason, the unhappy one. Hegel’s aversion towards this denies the very state of affairs [Sachverhalt] which he underlined, where it suited him: how much the universal dwells within that which is individual. According to strategic necessity he denounces the individuated as if it were the immediate, whose appearance [Schein] he himself is destroying. With this however the absolute contingency of individual experience disappears, too.

    "This contingency" refers back to the previous sentence: it's the contingency of the individual subjectively making qualitative judgements. The key statement in this passage is, "the universal dwells within that which is individual." I said last time that "we have to adjust our expectations and see that the better kind of reason, and the better kind of knowledge, is contingent and worldly." However, this contingency is not an anything-goes meaningless chaos—the subject is part of a greater whole and is shaped by its universal structures. More than that, the universal only exists at all through particularity, and the result is a kind of mediated contingency, not a random one. The subject is the site where historical, social, and conceptual forces are concentrated and find expression.

    The argument takes the form of a critique of Hegel. All I'll say about that is: the gist is that Hegel had this insight about mediated contingency, but dropped it for systematic reasons in favour of the Absolute Spirit. The reason Adorno makes an argument which is primarily against scientism by means of a critique of Hegel is that it brings out both the necessary insight and the lack of the same insight. Scientism is able to dismiss the subjective owing to its mere contingency, but Adorno counters that this contingency is nevertheless structured according to objective reality.

    The argument is then fleshed out:

    It would have no continuity without concepts. Through its participation in the discursive medium it is, according to its own determination, always at the same time more than only individual. The individuated becomes the subject, insofar as it objectifies itself by means of its individual consciousness, in the unity of itself as well as in its own experiences: animals are presumably bereft of both. Because it is universal in itself, and as far as it is, individual experience also reaches into that which is universal. Even in epistemological reflection the logical generality and the unity of individual consciousness reciprocally condition one another. This affects however not only the subjective-formal side of individuality. Every content of the individual consciousness is brought to it by its bearer, for the sake of its self- preservation, and reproduces itself with the latter.

    Individual: the biological human being
    Subject: the unified self-aware "I", which reasons and knows

    So it's through participation in language and thought (the "discursive medium") that the individual finds its grounding in the universal. At the same time, the individual becomes subject. These two moments are two sides of the same coin: (1) a reciprocal conditioning where the universal provides concepts and the necessary logical form for self-objectification—including the identification of oneself as a member of a class of objects; (2) the act of self-objectification—becoming a self-aware "I"—is how the universal is actualized in a thinking being.

    Grounding in the universal <--> Self-objectification

    But the grounding in the universal only comes to be actualized in the subject, so the former is both the condition and the result of the latter.

    The result is that to accuse the individual's judgements of being "merely subjective" or contingent, is misleading, because it implies such judgements have no possible objective structure or meaning, and this is far from the truth. Because the subject is constituted by the universal, its experience is never just private but is always already connected to and structured by universal reality.

    The result will be that through the universal, the subject reaches for the objective.

    By the way, it has become doubtful that all animals are bereft of the unity of the self and subjective experience, but this doesn't really affect Adorno's point.

    Through self-awareness it is possible for the individual consciousness to emancipate itself, to expand itself. What drives it to this is the misery, that this universality tends to exert its hegemony in individual experience. As a “reality check” experience does not simply mirror the impulses and wishes of the individual, but also negates them, so that it would survive. That which is general in the subject is simply not to be grasped any other way than in the movement of particular human consciousness. If the individuated were simply abolished by fiat, no higher subject purified of the dross of contingency would emerge, but solely one which unconsciously follows orders. In the East the theoretical short-circuit in the view of the individuated has served as the pretext for collective repression. The Party is supposed to have a cognitive power a priori superior to that of every individual solely due to the number of its members, even if it is terrorized or blinded. The isolated individual [Individuum] however, unencumbered by the ukase, may at times perceive the objectivity more clearly than a collective, which in any case is only the ideology of its committees.

    Here Adorno turns from pure philosophy to politics, so I think this and the next paragraph are crucial in understanding how abstract philosophy and political engagement are connected in negative dialectics. In a way it might seem a bit dated, since he has East German totalitarianism in his sights, but on the other hand the threat of authoritarianism has hardly lessened for us in recent times, so I think it's very relevant.

    He is standing up for individualism: an expansive critical reason just isn't possible without autonomous subjectivity. "The people," though above and beyond the subject, is not thereby in a better to position to determine the objective. On the contrary, it is the autonomous subject, unshackled in its thoughts by the ukase (official decree), which can better perceive the truth.

    It's become common for Leftists, especially American ones, to emphasize the collective over the individual. This is partly because American conservatism is so reliant on the assertion of uncompromising individualism, that its opponents feel obliged to take the opposite view (which is fair enough). Adorno and his fellow Frankfurt thinkers had a horror of the coercive collective as much as they did of selfish individualism, understandably given their own experiences in Europe.

    But of course, there is a dialectic between individual and collective, and they're interdependent.

    In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. — Communist Manifesto

    Marx and Engels here clearly make the freedom of the individual a necessary condition for a free society. But which one we may want to emphasize in our political statements depends on when and where we are. On top of that, Adorno would make the point that what ideologically presents itself as individualism, as freedom of the individual particularly in the United States, is really no such thing. This is why he and others were so critical of bureaucracy, the culture industry, and conformism in advanced capitalism.

    But I'm digressing. Adorno repeats and elaborates on the argument:

    Brecht’s sentence, the Party has a thousand eyes, the individual only two, is as false as any bromide. The exact imagination of a dissenter can see more than a thousand eyes wearing the same red- tinted glasses, who then mistake what they see with the universality of the truth and regress. The individuation of cognition resists this. The perception of the object depends not only on this, on the distinction: it is itself constituted from the object, which demands its restitutio in integrum [Latin: restitution in whole] in it, as it were. Nevertheless the subjective modes of reaction which the object needs require for their part the unceasing corrective in the object. This occurs in the self-reflection, the ferment of intellectual experience. The process of philosophical objectification would be, put metaphorically, vertical, intra-temporal, as opposed to the horizontal, abstract quantifying one of science; so much is true of Bergson’s metaphysics of time.

    This is the poem by Brecht that Adorno is referring to:

    In Praise of the Work of the Party

    Man has only two eyes;
    The Party has a thousand eyes . . .
    Man alone can be annihilated;
    The Party cannot be annihilated.

    Brecht was the kind of Marxist Adorno hated: the orthodox Party loyalist. The statement that the Party has a thousand eyes, the individual only two, is not only a chilling celebration of the coercive collective [EDIT: actually that's quite uncharitable] but is downright false, if it means that the Party can see clearer.

    But Adorno's final point is that despite the necessity for subjective judgement, constant self-reflection is required so as not to lose sight of the object's real qualities, i.e., so as not to get carried away with one's own concepts.

    This self-reflection, which is also the process of "philosophical objectification," is vertical and intra-temporal, rather than horizontal, abstract, and quantifying, like science. I understand the metaphor like this: science casts its conceptual net out horizontally, and anything underneath—the qualitative and non-identical—is ignored. Philosophy, on the other hand, should excavate downwards to the real objects in all their diversity and qualitative variation. As for time, he agrees to some extent with Bergson's critique of spatialized, quantified time: to be intra-temporal, then, is to be in time, not just laying down a scale on top of it.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    I think that's a very good assessment Jamal. I completely agree with the substance of what you wrote, especially the last few paragraphs. There's one small point I would like to address though, because I think that this specific point facilitates a better understanding of what Adorno is saying. The point is the reversal he has made, from the "identity", "positive" way of thinking, which portrays the concept as extending beyond the object, to the position he now describes, in which the object extends beyond the concept. What you state as "the universal dwells within that which is individual".

    Here it is in the Solidified section:

    What in the object goes beyond the determinations laid upon it by
    thinking, returns firstly to the subject as something immediate; where
    the subject feels itself to be quite certain of itself, in the primary
    experience, it is once again least of all a subject.

    Here now in Quality and the Individuated:

    Hegel’s aversion towards this denies the very state of
    affairs [Sachverhalt] which he underlined, where it suited him: how
    much the universal dwells within that which is individual.

    That which is general in the subject is
    simply not to be grasped any other way than in the movement of
    particular human consciousness.

    The isolated individual [Individuum] however,
    unencumbered by the ukase, may at times perceive the objectivity more
    clearly than a collective, which in any case is only the ideology of its
    committees.

    Having the concept extend beyond the object is the mathematical way. The category, as the universal, allows for every possible instance, that means that it extends beyond every one. The set for example allows for possible objects, and this provides the basis for the empty set. That the concept extends beyond the object is the principle which provides for the object to be measured. Numbers are infinite, so they will always extend beyond what is to be counted, therefore we will be able to count anything and everything.

    But Aristotle showed how in reality the object always extends beyond the concepts. This he formalized with the difference between the essence and the accidents. The essence is what the concept captures of the particular individual, whereas the accidents are the aspects of the particular which extend beyond this. He validated this with the law of identity which makes identity a relation between the object and itself, rather than a relation between the object and concept, allowing that every object is unique, with properties which extend beyond what can be captured with abstract concepts, universals.

    So Aristotelian logic proceeds with principles which are reversed in relation to how we commonly speak. The more general is said to be "within" the more specific. Commonly, we would say that "human being" is in the category of "animal" as a member of that group. But for Aristotle "animal" is within "human being", as a defining feature. This is what enables deductive logic. If human being, then animal, because animal is within human being, as logically prior. In "Categories", primary substance is defined as "that which is neither predicable of a subject nor present in a subject; for instance, the individual man or horse".

    So it's through participation in language and thought (the "discursive medium") that the individual finds its grounding in the universal. At the same time, the individual becomes subject. These two moments are two sides of the same coin: (1) a reciprocal conditioning where the universal provides concepts and the necessary logical form for self-objectification—including the identification of oneself as a member of a class of objects; (2) the act of self-objectification—becoming a self-aware "I"—is how the universal is actualized in a thinking being.Jamal

    According to what I've written above, I am critical of this passage. The individual cannot find grounding in the universal, because that would position the individual as "within" the universal. And that is the identity thinking which Adorno is avoiding, "the identification of oneself as a member of a class of objects".

    What I think, is that the self-objectification is when the individual grounds oneself as an object, instead of grounding oneself as the subject of some state (the universal). This is when the individual allows one's own feelings, emotions, intuitions, and most importantly goals and values, to extend beyond the conventional, the formal, and the person comes into contact with one's own accidentals, the nonconceptual within oneself.

    These two moments are two sides of the same coin: (1) a reciprocal conditioning where the universal provides concepts and the necessary logical form for self-objectification—including the identification of oneself as a member of a class of objects; (2) the act of self-objectification—becoming a self-aware "I"—is how the universal is actualized in a thinking being.Jamal

    So I would say that the true self-objectification is not a logical form. We had some discussion earlier about different logical forms, like abduction, but I would say that the self-objectification goes beyond even abduction in its lack of form. The issue I see is the matter of intention, goals, and the hierarchies of value such as moral values. First principles cannot be validated by logic, that's why we've had things like God and Spirit in this place.

    But the grounding in the universal only comes to be actualized in the subject, so the former is both the condition and the result of the latter.Jamal

    See, by not grounding the individual within oneself, by objectifying oneself as an individuated object, but saying that the individual is grounded "in the universal", you set up a vicious circle, where the individual and the universal are grounded in each other. Take note of Aristotle's definition of primary substance above, "nor present in a subject". To be a true object, an individuated object, i.e. primary substance, the object cannot be within a universal.

    He is standing up for individualism: an expansive critical reason just isn't possible without autonomous subjectivity. "The people," though above and beyond the subject, is not thereby in a better to position to determine the objective. On the contrary, it is the autonomous subject, unshackled in its thoughts by the ukase (official decree), which can better perceive the truth.Jamal

    Yes, I think this is exactly the point, and I'm glad you see this. But are you willing to go all the way on this principle, as I believe Adorno is leading us? Consider the way that the object extends beyond the concept. "The Party" holds the concept, as ideology, but only the individual has the capacity to see beyond the party line, and determine what is truly objective. In other words, The Party is actually guided by the efforts of various individuals who see beyond, and shape the concept, they are not guided by the conceptual ideology (that's just an appearance).
  • Jamal
    11k


    Thank you for closely reading my post. I appreciate it. And I'm glad you agree with my conclusions.

    However, I don't think we'll agree on those details. I enjoyed the idea that Aristotle's accidents are equivalent to Adorno's non-identical, but in the end of course, they are very different. I'm not sure I understand the rest. If your central point is that for Adorno, concepts = bad and intuitions = good, that's not right at all.

    Otherwise, I think there's quite a lot of agreement between us.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    However, I don't think we'll agree on those details. I enjoyed the idea that Aristotle's accidents are equivalent to Adorno's non-identical, but in the end of course, they are very different. I'm not sure I understand the rest. If your central point is that for Adorno, concepts = bad and intuitions = good, that's not right at all.Jamal

    To be clear, I am not saying that Aristotle's accidents are equivalent to Adornos non-identical. Equivalence itself is taken as an identity type of relation which would be misleading in this context. I am using Aristotle's approach to the object, defining it as primary substance, as an analogy to help understand Adorno's approach. So I am pointing at a similarity between the two.

    We appear to agree that Adorno is saying that the philosopher ought to give special status to oneself, in self-reflection, as an individuated object. Where we disagree is in how Adorno recommends that we develop the relationship between the object and the universal, or in this case, the particular person and the more general, state. I think you jump the gun, and jump to a conclusion when you say that the individual grounds oneself in the universal. Adorno has not yet revealed how the individual is to be related to the universal, as a "subject", and the traditional spiritual way is for the individual to ground one's own existence in the divine. Then the self-reflecting individual sees oneself as a sort of medium between divinity and state, while the non-self-reflecting individual might see the state as a medium between the divine and the individual.

    So I am definitely not saying concepts=bad, and intuitions=good. Adorno has not made any reference to such a hierarchy of values. That would be the sort of grounding which I am looking for, and I have been critical of him from the beginning, for not providing it. But I am patient to see what comes.
  • Jamal
    11k
    To be clear, I am not saying that Aristotle's accidents are equivalent to Adornos non-identical. Equivalence itself is taken as an identity type of relation which would be misleading in this context. I am using Aristotle's approach to the object, defining it as primary substance, as an analogy to help understand Adorno's approach. So I am pointing at a similarity between the two.Metaphysician Undercover

    Yes, I suspected so. I should have just said that I appreciated the analogy.

    So I am definitely not saying concepts=bad, and intuitions=goodMetaphysician Undercover

    Cool.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    Substantiality and Method

    In this section, I think Adorno attributes substantiality to society. The following are two key passage which I believe indicates this:

    Objectively, however, the whole which is
    expressed by theory is contained within the particular to be analyzed,
    not first through the cognizing subject. The mediation of both is itself
    substantive, that through the social totality.

    In their inalienably general elements, all philosophy, even those
    with the intention of freedom, carries along the unfreedom in which
    that of society is prolonged. It has the compulsion in itself; however this
    latter alone protects it from regression into caprice. Thinking is capable
    of critically cognizing the compulsory character immanent to it; its own
    inner compulsion is the medium of its emancipation. The freedom
    towards the object, which in Hegel resulted in the disempowerment of
    the subject, is first of all to be established. Until then, dialectics diverges
    as method and as one of the thing. Concept and reality are of the same
    contradictory essence. What tears society apart antagonistically, the
    dominating principle, is the same thing which, intellectualized, causes
    the difference between the concept and that which is subordinated
    under it. The logical form of the contradiction however achieves that
    difference, because every one which does not suborn itself to the unity
    of the dominating principle, according to the measure of the principle,
    does not appear as a polyvalence which is indifferent to this, but as an
    infraction against logic.

    The "totality" referred to in the first passage is described as formal, and "that of exchange". The second passage is more difficult but I take Adorno to be saying that the substantiality referred to is logical. He then describes a "remainder", what is left due to the insufficiency of the formal method in its capacity "to wholly absorb the contents".
  • Jamal
    11k
    In this section, I think Adorno attributes substantiality to society.Metaphysician Undercover

    Yes. Substantiality is the domain of social mediation:

    The mediation of both is itself substantive, that through the social totality.

    And the content of that substantiality is social particulars, i.e., "the particular to be analyzed", otherwise referred to by Adorno as "the object".

    The "totality" referred to in the first passage is described as formal, and "that of exchange". The second passage is more difficult but I take Adorno to be saying that the substantiality referred to is logical.Metaphysician Undercover

    Yes. I would add that Adorno is describing the social totality dialectically: he is contrasting substantial and formal, saying that the mediating social totality is substantial, a domain of objective social relations and not merely concepts, but is also "formal due to the abstract nomothetism [lawfulness] of the totality itself, that of exchange." The substantive social totality of relations, processes, and qualities takes on, via reification, a fundamentally formal and abstract character due to the development of commodity exchange as the overarching social imperative — take for instance the flattening of diversity under the regime of universal fungibility (money isn't new but only under capitalism does it rule over almost everything). The "nomothetism" refers to things like the law of value, and the principle of exchange.

    I'll be doing an analysis of this section soon and I'll try to say something about the "remainder" that you mentioned.
  • Jamal
    11k
    Introduction: SUBSTANTIALITY AND METHOD

    The idea here goes back to a concern of Adorno's that has come up before: the required unity of form and content. Here, form is philosophical method, and content or substantiality is what is being analyzed or philosophized about.

    That generation, also Simmel, Husserl, and Scheler, sought in vain for a philosophy which, receptive to the objects, would render itself substantive. What tradition dismissed is what tradition desired. This does not obviate the methodological consideration, of how substantive particular analysis stands in relation to the theory of dialectics. The idealistic-identity philosophical avowal that the latter dissolves itself in the former is unconvincing. Objectively, however, the whole which is expressed by theory is contained within the particular to be analyzed, not first through the cognizing subject. The mediation of both is itself substantive, that through the social totality.

    Adorno shares the famous goal of Husserl's:

    We can absolutely not rest content with “mere words” […]. Meanings inspired only by remote, confused, inauthentic intuitions—if by any intuitions at all—are not enough: we must go back to the “things themselves”. — Husserl, Logical Investigations

    Negative dialectics reflects this attitude in its scepticism towards conceptual overreach, and in its "priority of the object". But it also aims to show that phenomenology and related philosophies couldn't possibly achieve their goal, because they used the wrong methods (wrong because they relied on immediacy and thus did not appreciate mediation). Adorno is showing how his method is better than those of both (a) Bergson, Simmel, Husserl, and Scheler; and (b) Hegel. The former used flawed methods and the latter used a good method (dialectics) in a flawed manner (idealism).

    The crucial statement is...

    the whole which is expressed by theory is contained within the particular to be analyzed

    Dialectical theory is brought out of the particulars, because it is latent within them already — things and relations in reality are dialectical. This relationship between substance (particulars) and method (theory) is what this section is about, and in a way it's what dialectics is all about too.

    More concretely what he is saying here is that the only way to get to the things themselves, to really be receptive to objects, is to see them as nodes of the social whole.

    It is however also formal due to the abstract nomothetism [Gesetzmaessigkeit] of the totality itself, that of exchange. Idealism, which distilled its absolute Spirit out of this, encrypted something true at the same time, that this mediation encounters phenomena as a compulsory mechanism; this lurks behind the so-called constitution-problem. Philosophical experience does not have this universal immediately, as appearance, but as abstractly as it objectively is. It is constrained towards the exit of the particular, without forgetting what it does not have, but knows. Its path is doubled, similar to the Heraclitean one, the upwards and the downwards. While it assures itself of the real determination of the phenomena through its concept, it cannot profess this ontologically, as what is true in itself. It is fused with what is untrue, with the repressive principle, and this lessens even its epistemological dignity. It forms no positive telos in which cognition would halt. The negativity of the universal solidifies for its part the cognition into the particular as that which is to be rescued. “The only thoughts which are true are those which do not understand themselves” [Adorno quotes himself, from Minima Moralia].

    Adorno points out that the abstract character of the social whole is not an immediate given in philosophical experience. In starting with the particular, and moving out from there, one starts with the appearance and moves to the abstract conceptual form. Now, the latter is ideological — remember that we do not impose our own concepts from the outside but follow the meaningful concepts that exist — and only falsely describes the particular that we started with. Or more fundamentally, the concept that identifies the particular, e.g., as a worker or a commodity, actually contains the repressive principle, so there is an essential falsity in understanding owing to the provenance of the concepts we must use.

    This "negativity of the universal," which means formal, logical abstraction's denial of the particular's specificity, has the result (if we are critical and self-reflective in the way that Adorno says is necessary for philosophical experience) of fixing our thought and knowledge back onto the particular again, which is now seen as something that needs rescuing from its conceptual shackles.

    I see the meaning of the MM quotation as something like this: thoughts which do not understand themselves are thoughts which are not captured by higher-order concepts or systems thereof.

    On second thoughts, it's about arrogance vs. self-awareness and humility: thoughts which "understand themselves" are thoughts which are unaware of how insufficient they are.

    In their inalienably general elements, all philosophy, even those with the intention of freedom, carries along the unfreedom in which that of society is prolonged. It has the compulsion in itself; however this latter alone protects it from regression into caprice. Thinking is capable of critically cognizing the compulsory character immanent to it; its own inner compulsion is the medium of its emancipation.

    This follows naturally from what went before. All philosophy contains and tends to perpetuate the repression or domination at the heart of society, because its concepts are sociohistorical sedimentations of repressive social relations. To anticipate: this is why, since we must do philosophy, we have to do it critically, so as to minimize the perpetuation.

    Then Adorno says that this very feature, namely that it contains unfreedom, is what allows philosophy to be self-critical and prevent the perpetuation of unfreedom even though it remains within it.

    But how can it be both disease and cure at the same time? My vague and intuitive first attempt is: the other aspect to this compulsory character of thought is its compulsive pursuit of understanding. It doesn't surrender itself to "caprice," in other words, it has the strength to follow through to the end, to try to capture the particulars.

    To be slightly less vague: as I said before, social unfreedom is carried into philosophy in the form of abstraction, formalism, and logic. This logic is rigorous, and it is this compulsion of rigour that allows thought to push through to the truth. Philosophy doesn't find the truth in the fantasy that it can cast aside all restraints and do what it wants — this is mere "caprice" — but by knowingly working within the confines of the abstractions whose sources it aims to question.

    The freedom towards the object, which in Hegel resulted in the disempowerment of the subject, is first of all to be established. Until then, dialectics diverges as method and as one of the thing. Concept and reality are of the same contradictory essence. What tears society apart antagonistically, the dominating principle, is the same thing which, intellectualized, causes the difference between the concept and that which is subordinated under it.

    It follows from what has gone before that antagonistic reality and antagonistic method/theory are two sides of the same coin. Or rather, they are the same thing, the latter just being the "intellectualized" aspect of the former. Specifically, the antagonism in society finds its expression in theory in the antagonism and divergence "between the concept and that which is subordinated under it." And this latter appears as contradiction.

    So Adorno then repeats the central points he made earlier in the introduction:

    The logical form of the contradiction however achieves that difference, because every one which does not suborn itself to the unity of the dominating principle, according to the measure of the principle, does not appear as a polyvalence which is indifferent to this, but as an infraction against logic.

    The earlier statements to this effect were as follows:

    everything which does not conform to such, everything qualitatively divergent assumes the signature of the contradiction. The contradiction is the non-identical under the aspect of identity; the primacy of the principle of contradiction in dialectics measures what is heterogenous in unitary thinking. By colliding against its own borders, it reaches beyond itself. — Dialectics Not a Standpoint

    Contradiction is non-identity under the bane of the law — Dialectics Not a Standpoint

    Moving on...

    On the other hand the remainder of the divergence between philosophic conception and follow-through also testifies to something of the non-identity, which neither permits the method to wholly absorb the contents, in which alone they are supposed to be, nor intellectualizes the contents. The pre-eminence of content reveals itself as the necessary insufficiency of the method.

    It feels like he is trying to turn the negative into a positive, in emphasizing that the divergence has critical potential and contains a path to truth.

    Between philosophical conception and follow-through (execution) there is a divergence because of the divergence between concept and object already described. But in the execution there is a remainder, which I think is either a receptivity to the non-identical, or is just the non-identical itself (which agrees with your interpretation @Metaphysician Undercover).

    Another way to put that is that Adorno is moving from a description of the divergence between concept and object to an emphasis that in philosophical experience, particularly the execution of dialectical method, this divergence has a substantive remainder, namely the non-identical itself. That is, this gap between concept and object isn't just empty.

    What as such, in the form of general reflection, must be said, in order not to be defenseless against the philosophy of the philosophers, legitimates itself solely in the follow-through, and is negated therein in turn as method. Its surplus is with respect to its content abstract, false; Hegel already had to accept this discrepancy in the preface to the Phenomenology. The philosophical ideal would be to render the accounting one would give for what one does superfluous, by doing it.

    Note that the surplus and the remainder are not the same thing. The surplus is that of method and theory; the remainder is non-identical content.

    The surplus is "the accounting one would give for what one does," i.e., the conceptual superstructure. It is in the methodological execution that thought moves to the particulars and leaves the methodology behind, whereupon you find the non-identical remainder, and (ideally) cast aside the theoretical baggage, i.e., the surplus.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    Between philosophical conception and follow-through (execution) there is a divergence because of the divergence between concept and object already described. But in the execution there is a remainder, which I think is either a receptivity to the non-identical, or is just the non-identical itself (which agrees with your interpretation Metaphysician Undercover).

    Another way to put that is that Adorno is moving from a description of the divergence between concept and object to an emphasis that in philosophical experience, particularly the execution of dialectical method, this divergence has a substantive remainder, namely the non-identical itself. That is, this gap between concept and object isn't just empty.
    Jamal

    I think we are very much in agreement here. Where we disagree is concerning the finer points of how he gets to this conclusion, and exactly how to understand his terminology, which can be quite perplexing.

    Here, form is philosophical method, and content or substantiality is what is being analyzed or philosophized about.Jamal

    To persist with our continued disagreement, I don't think it's right to equate content with substantiality at this point. I think it is better to think of substantiality as a combination of form and content. This would be similar to Aristotle's primary substance which is a combination of form and matter.

    So when he says "the whole which is expressed by theory is contained within the particular to be analyzed", he claims "the mediation of both is itself substantive". Notice that it is the mediation of both of these which is supposed to be "substantive". So it might be the mediation between the whole of theory (form), and the particular (content), which produces substantiality And this substantiality he calls the "social totality". So he has a distinction between the whole which is expressed by theory, which I assume is the form in this context, and the substantive totality which is society itself.

    The difficult thing is that he is talking about a process, "philosophy", what you call "philosophical method". So I take it that he is talking about philosophy as a method of unifying form (concept) and content (object) as a social totality, based in exchange. I believe the basis of the unity is found in the following statement "Concept and reality are of the same contradictory essence".

    So at the end of the section he has a distinction between "philosophic conception" and "follow-through". The "philosophic conception" would be the form, the concept, while the "follow-through" would be the method by which the substantive totality, society itself, reveals non-identity in the relation between form and content. This aspect of non-identity, I believe is what produces the remainder. The only thing that I can see which would escape substantiality is the method itself, the follow-through. I think that's what's alluded to in the final sentence: "The philosophical ideal would be to render the accounting one would give for what one does superfluous, by doing it."
  • frank
    18.1k

    It's that form and content imply one another (just as subject and object do). It's dialectics lingo/jargon to say the form is in the content. Think the yin/yang symbol where black is in the white, and vice versa. This goes back to the basic insight of dialectics which is pretty simple, but talking about it gets convoluted.
  • Jamal
    11k


    I'm not convinced we disagree, but as @frank says, this kind of talk can get convoluted. It's at least partly a fractal kind of thing: you have this dialectical pair, form and content, but within the content this pair is repeated again. So for example, philosophy has its form and its content, where the latter might be a concept or a social relation, but that concept or social relation (the object) itself has both its own form, e.g., the principle of exchange, as well as its content, i.e., the object's specificity and non-identity. It's form/content all the way down.

    As @frank also said, form and content imply one another. This is not as much of a boring platitude as it might seem, because I think the importance of this issue for Adorno is that in actually existing society and science and philosophy, form tends to become divorced from content. An example is in the later section, "Detemporalization of Time," where he shows how in Kant, time becomes pure form without any content at all. Presumably this is emblematic of Enlightenment thinking.

    The significance I suppose is that dialectics is the only method which is properly aware of this and which refuses to allow form and content to be separated (although Adorno cricizes Hegel for doing it too) — and actually enacts this in its own practice and self-conception.

    And this is to say that negative dialectics resists reification, because the separation of form and content is the mechanism of reification.
  • Jamal
    11k
    @Moliere I'm interested to see what you think of the next section, which seems to be mainly about Sartre. Me, I haven't read any Sartre, so I'm not really able to judge Adorno's critique.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    It's that form and content imply one another (just as subject and object do). It's dialectics lingo/jargon to say the form is in the content.frank

    But that's the mistake of dialectical identity thinking which Adorno is exposing with negative dialectics. The two are not properly dialectically opposed, in reality, so we cannot say that each one implies the other. If one (content) extends beyond the other (form), then in the way explained by Aristotle, the former (content) is logically prior to the latter (form). Then, mention of the latter (form) necessarily implies the former (content), but not vise versa. Mention of content does not necessarily imply form. This is the reason for "the remainder", "the pre-eminence of content".

    'm not convinced we disagree, but as frank says, this kind of talk can get convoluted. It's at least partly a fractal kind of thing: you have this dialectical pair, form and content, but within the content this pair is repeated again. So for example, philosophy has its form and its content, where the latter might be a concept or a social relation, but that concept or social relation (the object) itself has both its own form, e.g., the principle of exchange, as well as its content, i.e., the object's specificity and non-identity. It's form/content all the way down.Jamal

    I agree that there is two pairs, but where we must be careful is in the way that things invert when we relate one set of pairs to another. So for example, "form and content" is a formal, theoretical representation. But when we look at things from the perspective of practice rather than that of theory, we have the pair of "substance and philosophical method". Now "substance" is assigned to the societal totality, which from the theory perspective is the whole of "form". So substance correlates better with form here. Accordingly, "philosophical method" is a property of the individual subject and therefore ought to correlate with content. However, the demonstrated remainder denies the actual truth of this correlation.

    The significance I suppose is that dialectics is the only method which is properly aware of this and which refuses to allow form and content to be separated (although Adorno cricizes Hegel for doing it too) — and actually enacts this in its own practice and self-conception.Jamal

    Form and content are separated only in theory. That is why "substantiality" must be a union of the two. But this union makes it so that substance cannot be immediately correlated with content. Then we see that substance, being a unity, a totality, is more closely related to form, as the whole, than to content, necessitating that content has a remainder in its (therefore non-identical) relation to form. This implies that content is logically prior to form, and provides for truth in any theoretical separation of form and content. Content must be represented as logically prior in any theoretical separation.

    And this is to say that negative dialectics resists reification, because the separation of form and content is the mechanism of reification.Jamal

    That's right, because form and content can only be separated when the reality of substance is denied. Disrespect for the necessity of substance is what results in reification. Therefore we must pay attention to how Adorno employs "substance", how he sees substance, to understand his grounding, and how he avoids reification.
  • frank
    18.1k
    But that's the mistake of dialectical identity thinking which Adorno is exposing with negative dialectics. The two are not properly dialectically opposed, in reality, so we cannot say that each one implies the other. If one (content) extends beyond the other (form), then in the way explained by Aristotle, the former (content) is logically prior to the latter (form). Then, mention of the latter (form) necessarily implies the former (content), but not vise versa. Mention of content does not necessarily imply form. This is the reason for "the remainder", "the pre-eminence of content".Metaphysician Undercover

    I think it's like this: the score of a symphony is like what Adorno means by form. A particular production of the symphony, alive in time, is part of the content. The remainder he's talking about is the unique aspects of a particular performance, like the way the first violinist connected some notes and kept others separate, or the tempo the conductor set. Haven't you ever gone looking for the perfect performance if Mozart's Requiem? You're looking for details don't appear in the score. Yet every performance you come across is OF that one score. The score is like something holy and separate from the world. The content is made of sweat and tears.

    I think I get what you're saying. Could you point me to where he talks about the "pre-eminence" of content? If it's not too much trouble?
  • Jamal
    11k
    Now "substance" is assigned to the societal totality, which from the theory perspective is the whole of "form". So substance correlates better with form here. Accordingly, "philosophical method" is a property of the individual subject and therefore ought to correlate with content. However, the demonstrated remainder denies the actual truth of this correlation.Metaphysician Undercover

    Note that the term translated by Redmond as substantiality is Inhaltlichkeit. This is translated by Thorne and Menda as content. They also say the following:

    Adorno’s title for this section is Inhaltlichkeit und Methode, where the word we’ve translated as “content” is actually a higher abstraction, something like “contentuality,” if that were a word. You might think of the title as “Method and the Matter of Content.”Content and Method

    Other ways of rendering it would be "the quality of having content" or "contentfulness" or "that which pertains to or constitutes content".

    In Kant it is contrasted with form. So form is the abstract, logical structure, and Inhaltlichkeit relates to judgements or perceptions that determine objects. I think this, rather than a classical metaphysics, is the conceptual toolkit to apply in interpreting this section.

    It might help to think of how Adorno uses Inhaltlichkeit in relation to art, arguably his favourite topic (if we include music). He means it to refer to art that embodies or reveals reality in some way, and opposes this to formalism, which has no meaning beyond its experimentation like postmodernist techniques in literature that are indulged for their own sake, i.e., where the form is empty.
  • Jamal
    11k
    I think it's like this: the score of a symphony is like what Adorno means by form. A particular production of the symphony, alive in time, is part of the content. The remainder he's talking about is the unique aspects of a particular performance, like the way the first violinist connected some notes and kept others separate, or the tempo the conductor set. Haven't you ever gone looking for the perfect performance if Mozart's Requiem? You're looking for details don't appear in the score. Yet every performance you come across is OF that one score. The score is like something holy and separate from the world. The content is made of sweat and tears.frank

    Nice.
  • Moliere
    6.3k
    Thanks :) -- I'll be sure to write something up then. Probably get to it this Friday.
  • Jamal
    11k
    Introduction: EXISTENTIALISM

    @Moliere I'm not jumping the gun here; I just want to look at something I'm particularly interested in, namely the role of examples or illustrations. It's far from being the focus of this section but it's the thing that caught my eye, and it's significant with respect to method.

    For a long time I've been trying to get my head around Adorno's antipathy to examples and I've explored it a few times in this reading group already. The passing mentions in this section shed some light on it. And although I don't know much about Sartre, I do know about his examples (the waiter, particularly).

    There are two passages in the section which are relevant:

    The schools which take derivatives of the Latin existere [Latin: to exist] as their device, would like to summon up the reality of corporeal experience against the alienated particular science. Out of fear of reification they shrink back from what has substantive content. It turns unwittingly into an example.

    The "schools" likely refers to the schools of existentialism and phenomenology (which are related). And as I've indicated, I take the "It" to refer back to "the reality of corporeal experience," so Adorno means to point out that the immediacy of experience which the existentialists want to get close to becomes in their hands a mere instantiation of their abstract concept. They "shrink back" from things for fear of treating them as fixed, i.e., as reified, but in doing so fall back on the formal and abstract. So content becomes formal.

    they universally-conceptually philosophize that which does not vanish into its concept, that which is contrary to it, instead of thinking it through. They illustrate existence [Existenz] in the existing [Existierenden].

    They illustrate instead of thinking through. They go from the concept to the particular instead of thinking through the particular to reach the universal.

    So it came to me that we can represent this aspect of the difference in method like this:

    SARTRE: Universal ---illustrated by---> Particular
    ADORNO: Particular ---reveals---> Universal (or contradictions therein)

    Worked up into a table:

    +---+-----------------------+------------------------+----------------------+
    |   | Direction of Thought  | Role of Particular     | Role of Universal    |
    +---+-----------------------+------------------------+----------------------+
    | S | Universal → Particular| Serves as an example/  | Predefined, applied, |
    |   |                       | illustration           | illustrated          |
    +---+-----------------------+------------------------+----------------------+
    | A | Particular → Universal| Engine of analysis,    | Revealed, mediated,  |
    |   |                       | problem to be unfolded | contradictory        |
    +---+-----------------------+------------------------+----------------------+
    

    QUESTION: If Adorno goes from particular to universal, shouldn't we a bit suspicious that he always ends up in the same places: commodification, instrumental reason, bourgeois consciousness, capitalist exploitation, etc?
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    14.3k
    I think I get what you're saying. Could you point me to where he talks about the "pre-eminence" of content? If it's not too much trouble?frank

    It is the concluding paragraph of that section, where he talks about the remainder, which is an instance of non-identity. In the last few sections he's been describing how the object overextends the concept. This is mentioned in the first paragraph of this section, as "...the whole which is expressed by theory is contained within the particular to be analyzed..." Then this is further explored in the last paragraph:

    "The pre-eminence of content reveals itself as the necessary insufficiency of the method."

    Other ways of rendering it would be "the quality of having content" or "contentfulness" or "that which pertains to or constitutes content"Jamal

    Yes, this describes the traditional use of "substance" quite well.

    And, this section actually goes a long way to resolving the dispute you and I have had since the beginning. I understand "society" as a concept, because I generally do not apprehend the substance which provides the objectivity for that union of people to be known as an entity. Traditionally, substantiation was provided by God, or Spirit, but this is rejected as a faulty substantiation. You have insisted that "society" is an objective entity, but I haven't been able to determine the objectification

    Adorno has now demonstrated to me, that although "social totality" appears to me to be solely a "whole which is expressed by theory", i.e. a formal concept, if I understand this unity, or whole, as a unity of form and content, the content can validate an objective, substantial whole. Now I can grasp what he calls "the social totality" or what you call "society", as a union of form and content, whereby the content provides what is necessary for this to be a substantial, or objective whole. And so long as we maintain the pre-eminence of content, whereby the object extends beyond the concept as non-identical, the conception may be true.
  • frank
    18.1k
    "The pre-eminence of content reveals itself as the necessary insufficiency of the method."Metaphysician Undercover

    I read through that again, and I really don't know what he means by this. But pre-eminence doesn't mean "prior to."

    But that issue aside, when you say content can precede form, are you thinking about existence preceding essence?
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