UK, Germany, France, Sweden. All the places white people used to believe it was ok to be British, German, French, Swedish, etc.

Poland is still Poland.



Maga is a symptom of not thinking? Ok. But is there nothing more to “MAGA” besides lack of thought? Or, more to my point, is lefty wokeness a symptom of not thinking too, or is maga the only evidence of the disease of not thinking post enlightenment? The knee-jerk throwing of all maga under the no-thought bus sounds pretty thoughtless to me.

Those swarthy, southern Europeans aren't quite white enough, are they?

It has nothing to do with white. It has to do with the political opinion that being British is a good thing to be. Or being German is a good person to be.

I’m of Italian decent. Italy’s current president is fighting back - but all of Europe is in trouble.

So what the hell are you talking about? You can’t out racism this greasy dago.

Well, you mentioned white people and certain northern Europe countries, you know, so I thought you were going there. As for Italy, which one? Most regions have their own dialect, and hate those others who don't speak it. Most of my ancestors come from around Potenza. I don't know if a Genoese would let me in the door.

Or, more to my point, is lefty wokeness a symptom of not thinking too, ...? — Fire Ologist

Define what you mean by "lefty wokeness"? AFAIK that pejorative expression invokes another vacuous, right-wing media boogeyman in order to "own the Libs". :mask:

And there’s no reason why you should. From what little I know of you, you are clearly a person of will. That’s a good thing, but it’s not what’s right for me. — T Clark

I love your reply. I also love democracy because it is about our differences and how, together, we make things good.

I love your reply. I also love democracy because it is about our differences and how, together, we make things good. — Athena

Yes. I don’t want to hang around only with people who think the same way I do.

There are around 270 million citizens of countries with a king, and this is an international site. Please do not presume that your "we" covers everyone here. — Jamal

Good, you bring up things we should think about.

I do attempt to be inclusive, but was surprised by the Google reply to my question of citizen responsibility in kingdoms. Google says in kingdoms, citizens are expected to do the same things as people in a democracy, and I am unsure how well this works. Right now, it isn't working so well in the US either. I don't think many understand civic duties in the US. Our present president is certainly redefining the powers of the president.

Historically, people have struggled with their governments, but it was my understanding that in a democracy, the mechanisms for change are built in so that change can happen without violence. I think education for technology has left US citizens poorly prepared for peaceful citizen action. If I were in Russia, I don't think I would be so bold about expressing disagreement.

UK, Germany, France, Sweden. All the places white people used to believe it was ok to be British, German, French, Swedish, etc. — Fire Ologist

This statement is not racist but a truth for all humans and has been so from the beginning human time. Today, this tribalism has arisen with indigenous people around the world. Back in the day, there was competition between tribes, and some wanted to be known as "the real people". Some tribes had what we may consider silly rules, such as only people in their tribe could wear their hair in a certain way, identifying them with their tribe.

This is a good subject to discuss. Some of us like to believe we can create a better world, and besides needing science to protect our earth, we need to know normal human desires and behaviors, and the consequences of ignoring knowledge of being human.

Define what you mean by "lefty wokeness"? AFAIK that pejorative expression invokes another vacuous, right-wing media boogeyman in order to "own the Libs". — 180 Proof

I volunteered in the bookroom at our community center bazaar, and there were a few books about being woke. The understanding of those books was a deeper understanding of oneself, the world, and one's connection to others. They were happy, uplifting books. I just want everyone to know that is possible.

Define what you mean by "lefty wokeness"? — 180 Proof

The left. The not-‘MAGA’. (MAGA, that pejorative expression that helps “progressives” own the fascist/authoritarian haters). Maybe “wokeness” triggers a shut-down of communication, but so does just saying MAGA is the easy example of “not-thinking”. (Although it didn’t shut me down apparently.)

This statement is not racist but a truth for all humans and has been so from the beginning human time. — Athena

There’s an element of what I am trying to say that is tribal for sure. But there is a more raw tribalism that properly arises closer to home, like in your house and your town and your city, and then there is a different kind of tribalism that incorporates the broad differences between nations like England and Germany. America is a good example of the two types of tribalism. In America, there is a real difference between a tribe from Alabama and a tribe from Montana and a tribe from San Diego, but all of them have the sense of being American, because being American is more ideological, or better, cultural, in nature. America itself is cross-tribal, by nature. We are many different peoples, who together form a nation unlike Britain, which is unlike Portugal.

But when the Brit (of any color) seeks to save Britain from becoming France or Afghanistan, when he or she seeks to save British culture, he only looks like a racist Brit because he is white. This means the white British man becomes the worst representative of the British culture. Today, because of leftism and immigration, that apparent racism of white British men makes the whole British culture look unjustifiable and not worth saving. It even justifies actively changing the culture of “England”, turning England into a piece of land only, and no longer a culture. So it’s mixed with age old tribalism, but it’s a broad cultural landscape (called England or France) at stake.

If all the immigrants assimilate to the culture, like all these Europeans did when America formed (the Irish in the 1800s, the Italians in the 1900s, etc), we see American culture change, but we see the Italian immigrant also change and become Italian-Americans too. Of course each wave of immigrants must be allowed to bring their unique past with them, but they must seek to build something new, drawing from the country they emigrated to.

Like tribalism, racism is also in the mix. In America for example, the Chinese didn’t really assimilate as quickly as the Irish and the Italians, and of course Black American history is filled with racism. These are more tribalisms, but racial ones, and not so much cultural or ideological. And ultimately they are terrible growing pains underneath what American ideology and culture really are.

But my larger point here is that people let the issues of race dominate the whole separate issue of culture. The historic racism defines the whole culture, ie. “America is a racist country.” America is much, much different than just its racism. Same with Germany. Etc. But the only cultures we are allowed to promote are those of the downtrodden and the minorities. Else we sound “supremacist” or “prejudiced against X”. And during this distraction, the majority is being turned into a minority, and Europe qua Europe slips away.

My great-grandparents were from Abruzzi and Sicily, but I am a third generation American, so at this point, Italy may as well be Greece or Egypt.

you mentioned white people — Ciceronianus

I pretty much made my point above, but white people, who happen to be British, can’t really be proud to be “British” anymore, can they. White Brits are colonialist, oppressors. They aren’t allowed to be proud Brits without sounding racist.

Europe is giving up its various identities. Maybe some can say “so be it” a bye bye English culture, but that is what could happen. It offends people to even notice this. But race/ethnicity is not the point at all. This isn’t about putting down the other and balancing races. It’s about building or protecting something unique, as a good in itself.

Personally, I like all of the differences and don’t want to lose any of these cultures. But political correctness has trained too many too well. We are ordered to treat most traditional things, especially when they are white traditions, as hiding badness, so no one has felt safe enough to talk about any of the traditions (as they slip away, one institution at a time).

Define what you mean by "lefty wokeness"?
— 180 Proof

The left. The not-‘MAGA’. — Fire Ologist

Aka Antifa – opposition to pro-"fascist / authoritarian" white grievance paranoia. Yes, we're guilty as charged. :mask:

[Is] maga the only evidence of the disease of not thinking post enlightenment? — Fire Ologist

I didn't claim or imply MAGA is "the only" symptom of not thinking, though at the moment MAGA is the most conspicuous symptom (re: "alternative facts" anti-intellectualism, anti-science ...)

I didn't claim or imply MAGA is "the only" symptom of not thinking, though at the moment MAGA is the most conspicuous symptom (re: "alternative facts" anti-intellectualism, anti-science ...) — 180 Proof

Cool.

I would argue that MAGA conservatism is only the most conspicuous example of not thinking because of the complicity of the major media and the conquests of leftist ideology since the 1960s. The left has successfully made the caricature of the white conservative common knowledge. The media says MAGA uses “alternative facts" and anti-intellectualism, and is anti-science. But an honest look at what conservatives say, and think, and do, and care about, is not what the media portrays.

And further, I find the left to be fairly conspicuous in their ignorance (for some). The left is anti-history (when has socialism ever worked at all even slightly?), anti-intellectualism (who on the left will allow in good faith a conservative to challenge their dogma and debate the possibility that they are wrong about something with that conservative, or worse learn something new?), and anti-science is shown in how ‘consensus’ among popular scientists and the authority of ‘peer review’ has replaced thorough skepticism and honest experimentation and falsification, ie, we honestly don’t know shit about the climate or medicine, even given how much we know, but “science” gets to make moral law (burning fuel is a sin) and set policy (no more nuclear power plants, get your Covid shot to save the planet…).

But fine, MAGA are the cretans - we’ve taken that abuse since the original Hitler (Ronald Reagan).

I was happy you referred to "MAGA conservatism." I thought that might indicate you distinguish it from Conservatism, which once championed individual rights and limited government. But then you disappointed me, and stopped using the "MAGA" qualifier.

The grotesque rogues gallery that is the regime now in power in our Great Republic (it resembled a republic, once) is intent on empowering the federal government and restricting individual liberty. MAGA, it seems, consists of its bewildered and besotted followers. If that's Conservatism, it's mutated considerably.

MAGA =|= conservatism.

MAGA, it seems, consists of its bewildered and besotted followers. If that's Conservatism, it's mutated considerably. — Ciceronianus

:up: :up:

MAGA =|= conservatism. — 180 Proof

True. These are all distinguishable terms: maga, conservative, traditionalist, rightwing, Republican.

So are these: woke, leftist, progressive, liberal, democrat.

I still disagree you’ve pinpointed “MAGA” if you see zero thinking in a maga supporter. But, at least you’ve focused the non-thinking paint brush with a little more precision.

So if we want to distinguish between maga and conservative, are there any thinkers who are conservative? Is it just MAGA who clearly don’t think? I assumed anyone who voted for Trump and votes Republican, and finds good in some things republicans do, was one of your “MAGA” non-thinkers. My bad I guess. Because conservatives have to vote for Trump, precisely because of the way Harris and Biden and leftists and socialists and some liberals support “empowering the federal government and restricting individual liberty.”

Lots more to think about.

Well done. It's very tough to slog through this sort of discussion.

I'm definitely on the Left (i've confirmed this is several fora, several 'survey' type quizzes etc... and I've never been even 'on the line' as it were). But i recognize almost nothing of what 180/Cic are talking about here in my conservative friends etc..

I think there's some truck to one point on each side though:
1. 180 etc.. are right, generally, the self-avowed and proud "MAGA" types are running a bit of a scam (not themselves, they are pawns). It's almost a simply marketing ploy with big, crayon words to bandy about. Those people do certainly, unintentionally, seem to be anti-intellectualism, anti-science etc..
2. You are right: The left active thwarts and shuns any intellectual, scientific or sociological reality tat doesn't support the underlying emotional milieu they've worked themselves into. This has proved to be the more dangerous of the two, by a wide margin. There has been eight years of 'MAGA' America, and we see, loud and clear, where the hate, violence and vitriol is coming from. Not. MAGA.

There has been eight years of 'MAGA' America, and we see, loud and clear, where the hate, violence and vitriol is coming from. Not. MAGA. — AmadeusD

:mask: wtf ...

:up:

hate, violence and vitriol is coming from. Not. MAGA. — AmadeusD

For some reason that is a bold statement of opinion, and not just an observation of what is actually happening right before our eyes.

wtf — 180 Proof

Exactly.

There’s an element of what I am trying to say that is tribal for sure. But there is a more raw tribalism that properly arises closer to home, like in your house and your town and your city, and then there is a different kind of tribalism that incorporates the broad differences between nations like England and Germany. America is a good example of the two types of tribalism. In America, there is a real difference between a tribe from Alabama and a tribe from Montana and a tribe from San Diego, but all of them have the sense of being American, because being American is more ideological, or better, cultural, in nature. America itself is cross-tribal, by nature. We are many different peoples, who together form a nation unlike Britain, which is unlike Portugal. — Fire Ologist

You worded that very well. I had not thought the thought of tribal differences, that is not just a difference of people in different places, but also a difference of quality, such as you said, the difference between tribes and being American, which can also be tribal. When I was a kid, the school said we should ask our parents what we were, expecting us to name a European country. My mother got indignant and said we are American, 57 different varieties. :lol: But I always wanted to be an Indian and was horrified when I learned how badly we treated native Americans.

I love all our differences like I love a field full of different colored flowers. I love that my city celebrates the Day of the Dead from Mexico, and we have an annual Asian Festival that used to represent all flavors of Asians, but now is down to a Japanese celebration because the people who started the celebration got old like me and can't do what they once did. That is a sad loss to our community.

But when the Brit (of any color) seeks to save Britain from becoming France or Afghanistan, when he or she seeks to save British culture, he only looks like a racist Brit because he is white. This means the white British man becomes the worst representative of the British culture. Today, because of leftism and immigration, that apparent racism of white British men makes the whole British culture look unjustifiable and not worth saving. It even justifies actively changing the culture of “England”, turning England into a piece of land only, and no longer a culture. So it’s mixed with age old tribalism, but it’s a broad cultural landscape (called England or France) at stake. — Fire Ologist

Are you aware of the divide in the US and a fight for what it means to be a good American and decent human being? Not since our Civil War have we been so divided. Daily, the horrors of ICE are in the news, along with the actions of those who oppose ICE. ICE is behaving as badly as Germany's Gestapo. I am wondering if the US will exist for another 100 years. I don't think it can if it does not come to peace with itself. Too many US citizens do not seem to know that Mexicans owned the land north of the river that divides us. We have a treaty with Mexico that was supposed to protect the rights of former Mexicans, who did not cross the border, but the border crossed them. It seems to me this matter of citizenship is as old as ancient times and was tied up with notions of slavory. A big dividing point between Jews and Christians was notions about who can be one of us, with Judaism being more exclusive than Christianity.

I don't care where a child is born, if the child is educated in the US that child has learned to be American and from there, decisions should be based on the protection of children and family values. Mankind needs to up its moral standing and womankind might help, but the women supporting Trump sadden me very much because maybe womankind will not do better than mankind. Unfortunately, female Christians can be the worst. Whatever, our exclusiveness is a very good subject to discuss. I am glad to know the US is not the only country having a hard time with the instinct to fight for our group and not care about the well-being of all children.

I would argue that MAGA conservatism is only the most conspicuous example of not thinking because of the complicity of the major media and the conquests of leftist ideology since the 1960s. The left has successfully made the caricature of the white conservative common knowledge. The media says MAGA uses “alternative facts" and anti-intellectualism, and is anti-science. But an honest look at what conservatives say, and think, and do, and care about, is not what the media portrays. — Fire Ologist

That is an awesome statement. Our media has become our worst enemy, and it is my understanding that one of the most powerful media owners is not a US citizen. Freedom of speech is a good thing, but it also needs to be held accountable. We have sensationalized our news stories and forgotten or at least ignore our values.

In a small tribe, morals will be kept because people know each other, and the well-being of the tribe is important to everyone. When the tribe is millions of people, everyone becomes anonymous, and the well-being of a group this large does not impress our consciousness with the same personalness as a small tribe.

Religions made unnaturally large populations possible, but I don't understand how they can be maintained with modern science. The religions do not share the same beliefs, and that weakens them. Nationalism also makes large populations possible, but we can see now that we should not take nationalism for granted. When civilizations face hard times, they turn on each other. Being amoral is not a good thing.

My mother got indignant and said we are American — Athena

Love it!

I love all our differences like I love a field full of different colored flowers. I love that my city celebrates the Day of the Dead from Mexico, and we have an annual Asian Festival that used to represent all flavors of Asians — Athena

There really are so many things like that in America - totally agree. Nothing better than to hear some old guy with an accent talk about how much they love being American, while they are staying proud of some of the good things from their heritage at the same time - that’s the way to be.

Not since our Civil War have we been so divided. — Athena

We are all being groomed to hate. It’s our own faults for hating at all.

ICE is behaving as badly as Germany's Gestapo. — Athena

That’s not really true. There are some individual instances of abuse, maybe too many, but ICE has a dirty, dangerous job, so if we can’t stomach the hard parts and the ugliness, we should change the law, not stand in their way throwing rocks like we live in the Wild West and need to form vigilante gangs to fight the rogue cowboys. Hating ICE agents is misplaced. Hate Trump and Noem if you want, blame our legislators for not making the case their enabling laws are being abused, but it makes no sense to me to blame the grunts whose lives are hard enough.

decisions should be based on the protection of children and family values. — Athena

I agree with that. The world would be a more peaceful place if everyone reminded themselves of just that everyday. Love is all you need, so let’s try to get there.

I am wondering if the US will exist for another 100 years. — Athena

Me too. I fear what leftists want to make of NYC and what Newsome has made of California and what Democratic leadership makes of the political dialogue in Congress and in the press, and how the press always runs with whatever the Dems say and run against whatever Repubs say. The left is as likely to win as the repubs are to save what we have, but if the left wins, that will be the end of America (even though many leftists honestly love America). Immigration will be fixed if the left wins, because no one will want to stay here and they’ll be more likely to close the border from the inside, like the rest of the socialist states always do. If we are not an Islamic caliphate.

Mankind needs to up its moral standing and womankind might help, but the women supporting Trump sadden me very much because maybe womankind will not do better than mankind. Unfortunately, female Christians can be the worst. — Athena

I don’t think I agree with all that. No more divisions for moral arguments. We all need to up our moral standing. Enough judging others first. That said, American Christians (not Republican Catholics as much) but the Christians can be too quick to pontificate and moralize using Jesus’ name to hide weak political arguments. But that said, the secular moralizing is the worst to me. I’ll take a Christian woman preaching how I am going to hell, over a secular lefty telling me how much I am not a Christian or how much of a rape supporter and fascist and racist I am any day.

Our media has become our worst enemy, — Athena

It certainly promotes division, and hides a lot of facts, to promote an ideology instead of just the news. At least they keep getting caught fabricating bullshit.

In a small tribe, morals will be kept because people know each other, and the well-being of the tribe is important to everyone. When the tribe is millions of people, everyone becomes anonymous, and the well-being of a group this large does not impress our consciousness with the same personalness as a small tribe. — Athena

That’s interesting and worth thinking about. I think that is why everyone accuses the other side of being a cult. We can’t imagine these broad groups actually are full of real people. A broad group like “maga” or “socialists” is a shallow box. Individual, actual people, are deep and too complex for such gross generalizations. But we get to feel better than millions of people if we allow ourselves to hate these groups. Viewing them as sheep in a cult lets us not look past the shallow boxes at the real people.

Religions made unnaturally large populations possible, but I don't understand how they can be maintained with modern science. — Athena

See, in one sense if people stayed in small tribes there would be constant threat of war right in your own backyard. Constant for all, until we formed huge populations. So if you think religion made this unnaturally possible (which is also an interesting idea), than that speaks well for religion, not badly about it.

Religion isn’t opposed to science. It can be if you want. But science doesn’t know very much either. And morality is an utter mess. Religion of sorts goes all the way back to the beginning of human history. Religion is literally what you make of it. It can be, and has been, a force for good. Like science can be, and has been, but is often wrong, and can be used to make life worse for many.

The British have never really had autocracy due to the Magna Carta.

It was worse than an autocracy, it was colonisation. The British people were ruled with an iron fist for centuries, by French colonialists. The invaders eventually became the aristocracy and retained their privileged status until the 20th Century.

we should think about the ecosystem and how we can protect and live alongside it.