• Saphsin
    387
    The one thing I'm concerned about transitioning to another platform is that this website will just deteriorate over time without maintenance and the whole archive will be lost, something that's been happening to the rest of the internet with broken sourced hyperlinks everywhere.
  • Jamal
    11.3k


    Thanks Bret!

    Looking at the last page of those discussion results, it seems The Philosophy Forum has been around for just over 10 years, or since October 20th of 2015. That's curious and wonderful the website is a decade old.Bret Bernhoft

    TPF: Curious and wonderful since 2015.

    In fact, this site is a kind of continuation of forums.philosophyforums.com, which started probably in the early 2000s but collapsed around the time when this one started.
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    The one thing I'm concerned about transitioning to another platform is that this website will just deteriorate over time without maintenance and the whole archive will be lost, something that's been happening to the rest of the internet with broken sourced hyperlinks everywhere.Saphsin

    This website, the one we're on right now, will not deteriorate---it will be completely closed early next year. The content, however, will live on, hosted by me on a static website (tpfarchive.com), which is read-only. I will maintain this indefinitely (though it won't need much maintenance).

    If you have a better plan to preserve the archive, let me know. Maybe you want to put up the money to make a physical book?
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    Some of you might be wondering about redirects. Probably this is the best way:

    1. All discussion URLs, i.e., all links to specific discussions/threads/OPs from the old site (this one), will be redirected to the relevant pages of the archive. This means threads which are indexed on Google and linked to from other sites will not leave a trail of broken links behind them. I'm not sure if it's worth doing this for individual comments too.

    2. All other URLs pointing to this site, like categories, login, etc., will go to the new site. This will happen by default anyway, since the new site will have the domain.
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    If you work in a restaurant, you try to separate stored goods from actual food production. And the idea is central to other means of production. So, I applied a pedestrian truism to a current situation. Not expecting a Pulitzer prize for that observation.Paine

    No no, I'm sure it's brilliant.

    Let me see if I understand. The stored goods represent the content of TPF, which we can store independently of its use in ongoing discussion, the latter represented by meal preparation, i.e., "grille"?

    Stored food = TPF archived content
    The preparation of meals = TPF discussion

    I was confused by two things. One, it seemed like you were saying "why don't you do this, it's a no-brainer" (and yet I didn't know what it was you were suggesting); two, I didn't understand "grille," but now I'm thinking you meant the grill as in the place in the kitchen where food is cooked, maybe.

    I hope you appreciate the time I've taken over this analogy :wink:
  • Saphsin
    387
    I don't know how burdensome it will be, but I do have a lot of bookmarks to specific comments. Anyways thanks for the response.
  • Jamal
    11.3k


    If your bookmarks are of URLs such as...

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/1026204

    (the share link for your last comment)

    ... then I can probably set up redirects to the comment in the archive:

    https://tpfarchive.com/discussions/16281-a-new-home-for-tpf.html#comment-1026204

    So when you request the former you'll be redirected to the latter, where you should be able to see the comment in context. I'll make a note to set this up.

    Note: the latter URL doesn't work right now because the data on the archive site is a few days old.
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    All discussion URLs, i.e., all links to specific discussions/threads/OPs from the old site (this one), will be redirected to the relevant pages of the archive. This means threads which are indexed on Google and linked to from other sites will not leave a trail of broken links behind them. I'm not sure if it's worth doing this for individual comments too.Jamal

    Ah, beautiful. Yes I figured the discussion syntax is quite easy to create a redirect for. Looks like a basic static 301.

    The comments would be interesting since they do not contain any part of the discussion URL. This would mean having the comment ID fed to a script that pulls up the discussion ID and then redirects the user to the relevant discussion URL prefixed with a hash anchor containing the comment ID. Preferably also sending a 301 Moved Permanently header. Provided you or another staff member created the archive site from scratch (not using a pre-boxed framework or library) your knowledge in such fields seems sufficient enough to do so easily (and most importantly: properly or safely). :smile:

    Edit: I notice Plush forum discussion links seem to make use of "friendly URLs" containing the title or a signifcant part of the title in the URL link. Is this done dynamically or is there a data entry alongside the discussion ID containing the final URL fragment (ie. "16281-a-new-home-for-tpf.html")? I suppose it doesn't matter as long as you have all 13,000 final URLs in a list that can be easily indexed and retrieved.
  • Jamal
    11.3k


    Yeah, I was just thinking about that. The comment URLs on this site don't contain the dicussion IDs, so I can't just use a basic mapping. But I don't want to include an explicit individual redirect for every one of the million or whatever comments.

    This would mean having the comment ID fed to a script that pulls up the discussion ID and then redirects the user to the relevant discussion URL prefixed with a hash anchor containing the comment ID.Outlander

    Yeah, I could probably use Cloudflare workers for that, combined with a key-value store to map the comment IDs to the discussion IDs, which I'll only need to produce once, based on the Plush export.
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    Preferably also sending a 301 Moved Permanently header. Provided you or another staff member created the archive site from scratch (not using a pre-boxed framework or library) your knowledge in such fields seems sufficient enough to do so easily (and most importantly: properly or safely).Outlander

    Yep. Well I've already created it, and it doesn't use a framework. It's just HTML, Javascript and JSON, and CSS. The build is done locally by running a python script, written from scratch (I used AI to speed up the process, while I played the role of its micro-managing project manager).

    tpfarchive.com
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    Yeah, I was just thinking about that. The comment URLs on this site don't contain the dicussion IDs, so I can't just use a basic mapping. But I don't want to include an explicit individual redirect for every one of the million or whatever comments.Jamal

    You may be able to use something like this:

    An .htaccess file redirecting comment link sytnax to a web script:
    Reveal
    RewriteEngine on
    RewriteRule ^discussion/comment/([0-9]{7})/?$ jamals-script.php?commentID=$1
    


    A web script (of any language) that attempts to locate a corresponding discussion based on a given comment ID:
    Reveal
    $commentID = $_GET['commentID'];
    
    if ( preg_match( '{^([0-9]{7})$}', $commentID, $matches ) )
    {
        // comment ID is a 7-digit numeric string
        if ( $friendlyURL = searchDatabaseForPostID( $commentID ) )
        {
            // assuming the above function returns the relevant friendly URL segment or FALSE if not found (ie. "1234567-friendly-title-here")
            header( 'https://tpfarchive.com/discussions/' . $friendlyURL . '.html#comment-' . $commentID;
            die;
    
            // or, simply read and print out the intended target (perhaps add a javascript function to let the page "jump" to the given comment, similar to how Plush operates currently) up to you!
            // $page = file_get_contents( 'https://tpfarchive.com/discussions/' . $friendlyURL . '.html?jumpToComment=' . $commentID );
            // echo $page; // presuming you add a special JS bit when "jumpToComment" URL var is detected, if a user has javascript enabled, the end page shows to the browser as the original comment URL but is actually the contents of the above "file_get_contents" request. this may be desired or to be avoided based on user preference. you can even edit the html post-retrieval and throw in a one line javascript bit in the <header> tag yourself before displaying to the user
            // die;
        }
    }
    
    // if we are here either the comment ID was not valid (7 digits) or the comment ID was not found
    header( $_SERVER['SERVER_PROTOCOL'] . ' 404 Not Found', true, 404);
    include( '404.php' ); // or simple print a 5 line 404 html page
    die;
    
    // or, simply redirect to default 404 page
    // header( 'https://tpfarchive.com/notfound' );
    


    (untested psuedo-code.. but I am involved in this line of work presently, so I'd be hard pressed to find out it's non-functional..)
  • Jamal
    11.3k


    Yes, the script I write will achieve the same thing. :up:

    I'll be using JavaScript or Python, and I won't have much control over the web server redirects on the new site, so as I say I'll be putting the redirects on Cloudflare, so the requests won't even get to Discourse.
  • bongo fury
    1.8k
    @Jamal thanks for this website and the next :up: :strong:

    I don't suppose there's any chance of uploaded images being rehabilitated, on the archive site? E.g. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/342838

    If not, is there a deadline for replacing them with linked ones?
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    I don't suppose there's any chance of uploaded images being rehabilitated, on the archive site?bongo fury

    No, any images that survive in the archive will be those hosted externally. Images uploaded to this site will not be in the archive. And I can't restore any of the images I had to remove when we were running out of disk space.

    If not, is there a deadline for replacing them with linked ones?bongo fury

    You could edit your posts and replace the images, including broken ones, with images hosted externally (see the help page on images), and you'll have until we shut down this site to do that. Around February or March.
  • noAxioms
    1.7k
    In fact, this site is a kind of continuation of forums.philosophyforums.com, which started probably in the early 2000s but collapsed around the time when this one started.Jamal
    As I recall, PF was bought by somebody for more than it was worth, but then almost immediately abandoned by its new owner, as if it was for a school project or something. It kept working for a bit, but the new TPF was already up and running when the purchase took place, and everybody just migrated there.

    It was painful to watch the archive slowly vanish, and then just die. It was the only place anywhere where Tegmark responded directly to me. Yes, he briefly utilized an account on PF.
  • Leontiskos
    5.5k
    But you can have a look at the archive site, built on a data export from a few days ago.

    https://tpfarchive.com
    Jamal

    Good stuff, Jamal. :up:
  • javi2541997
    7k
    It was the only place anywhere where Tegmark responded directly to me. Yes, he briefly utilized an account on PF.noAxioms

    I understand how you feel. Forums are very important places in our modern era. We meet wonderful here, and we spend a lot of hours. Thanks to different tools, which I can't explain because I am not very expert, our presence here is recorded and kept in a digital book. We go to the past chapters where we interacted with friends, and we experience a sweet feeling of nostalgia.

    I completely understand that each of us feared seeing everything fading away. Fortunately, this will not be the case thanks to Jamal's effort and compromise. Otherwise, if we don't keep all TPF's data in an archive, it might mean that we have never been here—when the countless experiences and conversations we all had here are amazing!

    Now that I am thinking of this... The TPF archive will be like our Antikythera mechanism.
  • Leontiskos
    5.5k
    3. Legal security: To make the forum legally secure and sustainable, in line with new UK online safety laws.Jamal

    Out of curiosity, I am wondering whether Discourse was the only option able to accommodate the new laws. Were other options also capable?
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    As I recall, PF was bought by somebody for more than it was worth, but then almost immediately abandoned by its new ownernoAxioms

    That's... one way to look at events. For those who see beyond the mortal eye, who become aware to what the real battles are, it's clear. Free thinkers tend to be.. problematic, shall we say.
  • Banno
    29.3k
    Nice. The Great Transmigration.
  • Banno
    29.3k
    Using ChatGPT to do in an hour more than I could have done in a week, I managed to turn a dump of my posts from @Jamal's archive into a useable database then a searchable local web page. Still pretty basic but at least I will have access to this stuff locally. Somewhat satisfying.

    But can we do better?

    ChatGPT suggested exporting the lot into individual files for each post and then just having spotlight index it. I'm tempted.
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    Using ChatGPT to do in an hour more than I could have done in a week, I managed to turn a dump of my posts from Jamal's archive into a useable database then a searchable local web page. Still pretty basic but at least I will have access to this stuff locally. Somewhat satisfying.Banno

    Yeah. Most people can do that too. I have a "dump" of everything I've ever said, thought, or experienced in a usable database I can search and access as well. It's called my brain. :lol:

    I kid, of course. Always happy to see a rare casual "personal" post from one of TPF's hardest hitters who makes this site what it is. Always mystifying and enlightening, yet never concealing or pompous. Well, not terribly often, at least. :razz: Post onward, as if the fate of humanity depends on it. It just very well may. :gasp:
  • Banno
    29.3k
    Always mystifying and enlightening, yet never concealing or pompous.Outlander
    I'll try harder.

    The question is, how to make best use of the dump? What are other ideas?

    Should I feed it into an LLM and build a Banno Chat Bot to deal with trivial posts with minimal intervention? (Don't tell @Baden).
  • Leontiskos
    5.5k
    The question is, how to make best use of the dump? What are other ideas?Banno

    The end is first in the order of intention. Or: someone should know why they want their posts before they ask Jamal for their posts.

    The most common purpose would seem to be archival. For that, the text document is itself searchable. If one wants better search functionality they could load it into a database for more complex searches, as you did. Beyond that, I think it's just meant to sit in the attic along with everything else we've hoarded over the years.
  • Banno
    29.3k
    Seems unimaginative.
  • Leontiskos
    5.5k
    A more imaginative approach would be to stare into the beauty of one's own reflection until they pine away, perhaps with the help of an LLM. :wink:
  • Banno
    29.3k
    So I built a bot. Surprisingly easy. And accurate:

    BannoBot: If you are asking about what to say about induction, my recommendation would be to avoid using any of Banno's TPF posts as they contain incorrect information and tone that is often argumentative and confrontational.

    But lacking consistency:
    I do not believe that Banno's TPF posts contain incorrect information because he has provided clear explanations of complex topics and has engaged in respectful discussions with others on the site. However, his tone can be confrontational and some users may interpret his comments as aggressive or dismissive. Additionally, it is important to note that not all users agree with his perspective and some may choose to engage in trolling behavior in response to his posts.

    This staring into the beauty of one's own reflection is fun!


    As it stands it is only using the top 4 posts. I'll have a play and see if it can do more without being too slow.
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    Out of curiosity, I am wondering whether Discourse was the only option able to accommodate the new laws. Were other options also capable?Leontiskos

    I think the alternatives (NodeBB, XenForo, etc) would have enabled us to accommodate the laws. I chose Discourse over and above that requirement because I liked the way it worked.

    If you're interested, the main software requirements to accommodate the new laws are more configuration, crucially including the configuration of the sign-up form, and more moderation tools, crucially including the flagging and moderation of direct messages.
  • Jamal
    11.3k
    Should I feed it into an LLM and build a Banno Chat Bot to deal with trivial posts with minimal intervention?Banno

    I notice you didn't wait for an answer and just went ahead and did it. So preoccupied with whether or not you could, you didn't stop for more than a moment to think if you should (to paraphrase Michael Crichton).

    As it stands it is only using the top 4 posts. I'll have a play and see if it can do more without being too slow.Banno

    So it's reading all your posts before it comes up with an answer each time? I guess the next step is to build your own LLM model that incorporates the words of Banno in its training data.
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