There's an unacknowledged problem here, to do with "proof".

A proof is performative - you have one when folk are convinced.

Or at the least, we ought differentiate proof as demonstratively validity from proof as performative success.

No argument for the existence of god can be a proof in the first sense because no premise is incontestable.

Threads such as this - and indeed, 's "Disproving solipsism", and all other such "prove me wrong" attacks (yes, Charlie Kirk was an arse hole) depend on sliding between these two notions of proof.

The pretence is that one has a demonstrative proof when all one has is performative success within one's echo chamber. This leads to sham accusations of irrationality.

The disagreement hereabouts concerns the premises, not the validity of the arguments.

You can’t say that because you don’t know anything about existence, or God, for that matter. — Punshhh

I know God doesn't exist, because he is nowhere to be seen or heard. I know I exist, because I think. Moreover, I can see me standing and walking, and hear me talking.

I can see me standing and walking, and hear me talking.

and not knowing much about the world you find yourself in.

and not knowing much about the world you find yourself in. — Punshhh

I was not talking about the world. I was talking about me, and God. :)

I was not talking about the world. I was talking about me, and God. :)

You see yourself standing, walking, listening and talking in the world, don’t you? So surely you can also see yourself not knowing much in the world too?

No doubt (like sin, miracles, angels/demons, ghosts & the afterlife (e.g. resurrection, reincarnation, spirit world)), "God¹ exists" nowhere else but in the minds of religious believers and other magical thinkers. :sparkle:

¹five-sided triangle (empty name)

You see yourself standing, walking, listening and talking in the world, don’t you? So surely you can also see yourself not knowing much in the world too? — Punshhh

The concept of "the world" you are using is unclear. The world can mean the whole universe including the outer galaxies and black holes outside of the earth and solar system. Or the world could mean the earth where human race lives in all the countries. Or the world can mean your own perception and content of mind. Which world were you talking about?

I see your point, you could be seeing yourself walking in your mind. But you can also be in ignorance (in the politest possible sense) in your head too. This was my point, unless you are omniscient in your world, you are ignorant of it’s make up and origin.

This was my point, unless you are omniscient in your world, you are ignorant of it’s make up and origin. — Punshhh

No one is omniscient in any worlds. We can only be certain on what we perceive and sense. And some perceptions and sensations need verification for certainty. So all knowledge of the world are limited by the limitation of perception, and where it is not certain, we use our imagination and belief for constructing the concept of the world.

Anyhow, the topic here is not the world, or my ignorance on the world. It is about the proof of the existence / essence of God.

Here is an epistemological argument for God's existence; it is similar to the metaphysical argument I stated earlier in the thread:

Knowledge requires a knower; it does not exist independently of someone knowing it.
People, and other creatures, know things.
No creatures start out knowing anything; all acquire knowledge from another.
Therefore, all creatures must acquire knowledge from someone who is uncreated; in other words, God.
Therefore, God exists.

It may be thought that knowledge can be acquired from experience. This is true in a sense, however, experience can not possess knowledge because it is not a knower. Therefore, all knowledge gained through experience must be gained through someone who knows already. To say otherwise would be to say that knowledge can exist without a knower.

Alternatively, one may say that knowledge can be created or generated in someone by experience. However, if knowledge is created or generated, it must be created or generated by someone who has the power to generate or create that knowledge in another, that is, someone prior who knows. Yet, if someone knows prior, than the knowledge is not really created or generated, as it exists within the mind of the one who knows prior.