• Astorre
    346
    My generation, born in the 80s, received an education based on a Newtonian-Cartesian worldview: everything was clear, logical, predictable, like a giant clockwork mechanism. Analytical thinking was a value in itself. Experience gave us space in which we learned to search for and find connections, causes and effects. The mathematics I was taught in school stopped roughly at the level of five hundred years ago. Since I studied a humanities profession, the teaching of Philosophy – as a general discipline – was limited to its history from ancient times up to roughly the era of Nietzsche, while specialized disciplines, such as the history of political and legal doctrines, stopped at the collapse of Communism and the inevitable liberal view of the future. Perhaps mathematicians and physicists are taught differently, but when talking to my contemporaries and reading posts on this forum, I notice that society’s idea of quantum mechanics or relativity is more like “oh, just another more precise formula” rather than “guys, actually reality is arranged radically differently.”
    The picture of the world that is still being taught today (I can see this from my children’s textbooks) looks roughly like this:

    1. A problem has one correct answer.
    2. Facts are objective.
    3. The world is linear, comprehensible and obeys rules.

    But the world we live in keeps showing us that something is wrong. Let me give some examples from my own experience.

    1. You’re used to effort being roughly equal to result. You try twice as hard = you get twice as much. In reality, five randomly successful videos can catapult you to a billion views, while ten years of honest work in a corporation can end with you being replaced by an AI trained on your own reports.
    2. We were taught: facts are sacred. They can be verified. Then you open the internet and see that for a huge part of people a “fact” is whatever their feed served them with the right emotion. Algorithms shape beliefs faster than any textbook.
    3. We expect cause to precede effect. But try to explain the “root cause” of any viral trend. First something suddenly takes off, then people start copying it, then an entire culture is built around it – and only in the end do they come up with an “explanation” retroactively.
    4. We were taught that the observer tries not to influence the experiment. Today every like is an intervention. With your attention alone you literally shift reality. Algorithms build your tomorrow’s world from whatever you looked at for more than three seconds today. This is no longer an echo chamber – it’s a current you can hardly swim out of.
    5. You find yourself in a world where you seemingly control nothing. The causes you yourself generate are insufficient for any large-scale effects. At the same time, success gurus brainwash you with “think correctly,” “visualize the object of desire,” “the universe will provide.”
    6. You think humanity has long known what is science and what isn’t. Yet people from your closest circle keep telling you about your numerological number, zodiac sign and retrograde Mercury. They firmly know which decision to make because the stars told them so.

    This story is not about me deciding to shout “THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD” or accusing everyone of incompetence. I simply wanted to share my observations about how people like us adapt to all this. Based on what I’ve seen, I have identified the following groups:

    1. Retreat into denial and traditionalism: “let’s go back to the roots, everything was clear there.”
    2. Try to stretch the old picture of the world onto the new reality. They argue and try to prove there is one single cause for everything.
    3. Break down: anxiety, depression, apathy. And seem to remain in that state forever.
    4. Go with the flow, no longer trying to build anything; this very flow doesn’t even leave time to think about anything. They surf the waves of uncertainty and stop looking for the “true cause” of everything.
    5. Contemplate and write long forum posts or books like “The Burnout Society.”
    6. Those who instead of the old Newtonian world built a new "solid" world of data, metric and "scientifically proven". They believe neither in God nor in progress, but in tests, randomized studies, effective altruism, AI safety, longevity studies.
    8. Those who are looking for an explanation in numerology, astrology, or tarot.
    9. Those who are developing their own ontology
    10. Maybe someone else I missed.

    For generations, born in the 2000s, a possible solution to the contradictions presented by me has already appeared by itself. They are already going through this gap. For them, reality has always been fluid, multiple, controlled attention. They wonder why seniors cling to "facts" and "logic" when it's obvious that the world works differently.

    That's why I don't see a way out in order to start teaching post-truth en masse. No matter how hard it is, the average person needs a solid support. If you say to him: "There is no truth, everything depends on your point of view," he will not become a philosopher. He will lose his mind or become a cynical beast. A terrible fork is obtained:

    • We dont leave the old education: We release people with a "solid" consciousness into a "liquid" world. They are looking for stability, which is not there. They break down, facing the chaos of society and the market. They feel cheated.
    • We are introducing a "new post-truth": We are destroying ontological security. We break the soil from under our feet, or spread wings. This is a direct path to mass psychosis.

    It may very well be that the old education is the only thing that keeps today's world from falling apart. In any case, as I said above, it is possible that the world has already found a solution, meanwhile people of the "old school" will gradually leave as always. Perhaps this post is just an attempt to find the depth of old fashioned modernity on a flat screen.

    Interesting your opinion on this topic.
  • Wayfarer
    25.7k
    I too see the limitations of the Cartesian/Newtonian worldview, something I was alerted to by first reading The Tao of Physics in the 1970's. That book has its flaws and critics, but it is also not without its strengths. I think some grasp of Capra's kind of counter-cultural hippie physics is essential in the modern world.

    I too have always been critical of positivism. But I have not found the remedy in post-modernism or the other trends you point to, and don't identify with any of those 10 groups.

    You can be both logical and factual, without being positivist or dogmatic. There are some fantastically interesting and fruitful new syntheses of science, philosophy and, yes, wisdom, circulating on the internet alongside all of the mediocrity and confusion. There's never been a better time to be alive.

    Here's an anecdote I like. I'm quite interested in paleontology. In that discipline, specialists can age remains by analysis of the stone-tool flaking methods that they used when they dig down into caves. Different epochs had different types of flaking methods. The point is, those epochs might have lasted hundreds of thousands of years! And what changed in that time? The way stone tools were flaked. How many lives did our hominim ancestors live, where nothing whatever changed, for literally thousands of generations? And now everything is changing about every ten minutes. It can be confronting and confusing, but it is also unbelievably dynamic, with untold opportunities. Sure beats the hell out of skinning game with flint axes.

    In a philosophical register the absolutely crucial thing is to understand why life matters. Neitszche and Heidegger both foresaw the upsurge of nihilism, which is basically 'nothing matters'. People who think nothing matters often do appalling things - because it doesn't matter. So we have to find a way for life to matter for us. Having a family often does that, as your children's wellbeing will matter, but of course it's not limited to that. A sense of wonderment, and of gratitude, also helps.

    Our 'cosmic context' also matters. This is what religion provided: a cosmic story that you were part of. (This is why Star Wars and superhero movies are so huge.) But, seriously, philosophy needs to imbue a sense of connectedness to the Cosmos, and preferably also an awareness of the sacred, although that is something we tend to shy away from nowadays.

    There is no 'method' in any of this - no template, no ready-made plan. But there are many possibilities.
  • Astorre
    346


    Thank you for your comment, I really appreciate it.

    My post turned out to be a bit long, as I tried to fit a lot into it. Yes, the main point I wanted to make is that it's quite difficult to reconcile positivist thinking with the reality that surrounds me every day. Of course, there are many more ways to adapt than I listed in my ten points. And the thing is, the problem I outlined is called by different names: philosophers talk about an ontological crisis, some call it an "epistemological paradigm shift," others call it a burnout society. But, as a reader of such literature, I saw this common theme—which I named, as in the thread title.

    Yesterday, we had a lively discussion about this topic in my circle of friends, and overall, we came to full agreement with your idea of ​​a fantastic acceleration compared to ancient times. Perhaps humanity has always been accompanied by this feeling of "the impossibility of prediction," "the inaccuracy of experience," and generally "the inexplicable," but the scale of modern phenomena has elevated it to a completely different level of ubiquity, to which our Newtonian-Cartesian "concept of correctness" has been added.

    And, I'm not at all sure that there is any answer to the problem I've posed.

    Speaking of auto-training, for myself, I've chosen "limiting the flow of incoming information." Some seriously minded acquaintances of mine even specifically purchased push-button phones, giving up gadgets. They claim this helped them escape this "fertile stream of nonsense" and return to ordinary contemplation, which is so costly for modern people.
  • Wayfarer
    25.7k
    I grant, the steam of images that comes out of our devices is endlessly fascinating. I can't argue with that. But on the other hand, it's also a window into all kinds of conversations, ideas, images, concepts, and information which otherwise we would never have. it can be a problem but it's not necessarily a problem (although human beings seem to be able to make a problem out of anything.)

    Going back to the title of your thread - positivism is rather passé terminology. Positivism as a formal philosophical movement went out of fashion in the 60's. Positivism as an undercurrent in culture is however very much alive. It is simply the idea that only those things that are ascertainable by science, and mathematical theories that can be justified on those things, constitute real knowledge. It is certainly the presumption of many here, even though if called out they'll deny it.

    But what it means, is that there is no basis for philosophical, ethical or aesthetic judgements, other than either the scientific or objective, on the one side, or personal conviction or the subjective, on the other. This is a direct consequence of the predicament of modernity that I wrote another thread about. So the bigger existential question is, surely, what makes life worth living, what is meaningful? This is the ontological or existential crisis you're referring to.

    An article I often refer to, published when I was first posting to forums, comes to mind. It is a review of Jürgen Habermas' dialogues on religion with the then Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI). This review is called Does Reason Know what it is Missing?. It's basically about the respective roles of reason and religion in a secular culture. I'll quote an excerpt:

    What secular reason is missing is self-awareness. It is “unenlightened about itself” in the sense that it has within itself no mechanism for questioning the products and conclusions of its formal, procedural entailments and experiments. “Postmetaphysical thinking,” Habermas contends, “cannot cope on its own with the defeatism concerning reason which we encounter today both in the postmodern radicalization of the ‘dialectic of the Enlightenment’ and in the naturalism founded on a naïve faith in science.”

    Postmodernism announces (loudly and often) that a supposedly neutral, objective rationality is always a construct informed by interests it neither acknowledges nor knows nor can know. Meanwhile science goes its merry way endlessly inventing and proliferating technological marvels without having the slightest idea of why. The “naive faith” Habermas criticizes is not a faith in what science can do — it can do anything — but a faith in science’s ability to provide reasons, aside from the reason of its own keeping on going, for doing it and for declining to do it in a particular direction because to do so would be wrong.

    The counterpart of science in the political world is the modern Liberal state, which, Habermas reminds us, maintains “a neutrality . . . towards world views,” that is, toward comprehensive visions (like religious visions) of what life means, where it is going and what we should be doing to help it get there. The problem is that a political structure that welcomes all worldviews into the marketplace of ideas, but holds itself aloof from any and all of them, will have no basis for judging the outcomes its procedures yield. Worldviews bring with them substantive long-term goals that serve as a check against local desires. Worldviews furnish those who live within them with reasons that are more than merely prudential or strategic for acting in one way rather than another.

    The Liberal state, resting on a base of procedural rationality, delivers no such goals or reasons and thus suffers, Habermas says, from a “motivational weakness”; it cannot inspire its citizens to virtuous (as opposed to self-interested) acts because it has lost “its grip on the images, preserved by religion, of the moral whole” and is unable to formulate “collectively binding ideals.”

    The review goes on to be critical of Habermas in some respects, but I call this particular passage out, because it's a pretty pithy expression of what many people are feeling in the modern world. We're all of us wrestling with a crisis of meaning, but philosophers, at least, are prepared to acknowledge it, and try to face up to it. Which is something!

    This phase of Habermas' thought - he has a massive corpus - is associated with the phrase 'post-secular'. I think that's an interesting phrase.
  • Astorre
    346


    Does Reason Know what it is Missing?.Wayfarer
    A very interesting paper that succinctly complemented my reflection:

    The borrowings and one-way concessions Habermas urges seem insufficient to effect a true and fruitful rapprochment. Nothing he proposes would remove the deficiency he acknowledges when he says that the “humanist self-confidence of a philosophical reason which thinks that it is capable of determining what is true and false” has been “shaken” by “the catastrophes of the twentieth century.” The edifice is not going to be propped up and made strong by something so weak as a reminder, and it is not clear at the end of a volume chock-full of rigorous and impassioned deliberations that secular reason can be saved. There is still something missing.

    It's very difficult to argue with this. Moreover, I've met philosophers who, while lecturing at university, acknowledge the tragedy of postmodernism (the impossibility of a return to religion), but then, upon leaving the classroom, try to offer religion as a solution to all problems.

    This phase of Habermas' thought - he has a massive corpus - is associated with the phrase 'post-secular'. I think that's an interesting phrase.Wayfarer

    I don't quite like the terms "secular" or "post-secular," since they're talking about social structure, whereas I intended this topic to be about the structure of the individual.

    In fact, speaking in this vein, I don't even know what the solution should be: social or individual. In a world without truth, the only thing that seems appealing to me is to somehow "awaken" the individual's desire to independently seek their own truth. While this may not be the best solution, at least it doesn't cause pain for others.
  • Wayfarer
    25.7k
    A world without truth could not be, as there would be no actuality. Of course it is something each must realize by themselves, which is the task of philosophy.

    And furthermore the statement ‘there is no truth’ is self contradicting: if it is true then there is a truth. If it is not it is false.

    Best to avoid categorical statements of this kind.
  • Sirius
    92
    A world without truth could not be, as there would be no actuality. Of course it is something each must realize by themselves, which is the task of philosophy.

    And furthermore the statement ‘there is no truth’ is self contradicting: if it is true then there is a truth. If it is not it is false.
    Wayfarer

    The problem with this refutation is those who claim there are no truths are also often prepared to violate the law of non-contradiction

    And as Aristotle noted long ago, there's no way to demonstrate the universal neccesity of LNC. It's too basic, as a principle of thought. You can't say anything to the one who denies it. (Checking you Graham Priest)
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.6k


    The issue only arises if you put language first, as something properly basic. We have experiences of the world, feeling and intuitions etc that are pre-conceptual. And those don't come neatly pre-packaged in fixed conceptual boxes.

    The X in X=X is already an abstraction from the world we perceive because nothing remains the same from one moment to the next. If we take that pre-linguistic understanding to things like logic, truth and the law of non-contradiction, then its easy to see why these would have limits.

    If someone questions truth or the law of non-contradiction, they are not looking to make a statement that can be evaluated by the very tools they are questioning... they are looking to make an evidentiary statement about how truth and logic seems to relate to the world they experience.
  • Joshs
    6.5k
    The X in X=X is already an abstraction from the world we perceive because nothing remains the same from one moment to the next. If we take that pre-linguistic understanding to things like logic, truth and the law of non-contradiction, then its easy to see why these would have limitsChatteringMonkey

    Good point. But when we say that perceptual or felt experience is pre-conceptual, this doesn’t have to indicate there is no ideal component to it. Rather, conceptuality understood as formal, representational predication is a derivative modification of the more primary idealizing process of sense-making.
  • Joshs
    6.5k

    In a philosophical register the absolutely crucial thing is to understand why life matters. Neitszche and Heidegger both foresaw the upsurge of nihilism, which is basically 'nothing matters'. People who think nothing matters often do appalling things - because it doesn't matter. So we have to find a way for life to matter for us. Having a family often does that, as your children's wellbeing will matter, but of course it's not limited to that. A sense of wonderment, and of gratitude, also helps.

    Our 'cosmic context' also matters. This is what religion provided: a cosmic story that you were part of
    Wayfarer

    For Heidegger and Nietzsche, relevance and mattering aren’t optional, they are a priori conditions of possibility for any kind of experience. We don’t begin with non-relevance and then have to find ways of making life matter. Relevance is the pre-condition for the experience of meaninglessness and nihilism. That is, they are privative forms of mattering. Nihilism results from trying to place mattering under a totalizing cosmic ideal of the true or the good.
  • Wayfarer
    25.7k
    I take your point. My concern was more existential than transcendental: how, in the wake of the collapse of shared cosmic narratives, lived significance is actually sustained or whether it decays into nihilism. In that sense, I wasn’t claiming that meaning is constructed from nothing, but that historically we now inhabit conditions where the background structures that once stabilized meaning have broken down and is often experienced as “nothing matters.”
  • Janus
    17.8k
    10. Maybe someone else I missed.Astorre

    You missed "those who, instead of focusing on understanding and creatively managing their own experience, attempt to categorize and explain what others are doing in order to convince themselves that they they can stand above, and look down upon, the fray".
  • Janus
    17.8k
    :lol: Well might you smirk, having (I imagine) smelt the lingering odor of performative contradiction in what I said.
  • Astorre
    346

    But even the beginning of focusing on these questions is impossible without naming the underlying problem. Isn't that so? It's great when someone can stop and reflect. But many people need a starting point to do so.
  • Janus
    17.8k
    Is there an underlying problem, though? I mean, of course there are many problems with human life―both in individual lives and in the collective life. The idea "underlying problem" seems to suggest an overarching problem. Some will say the overarching problem is religion or the human tendency to form dogmatic ideologies, and of course, others will say the overarching problem is the loss of religion. Both of these viewpoints seem to me wrongheaded.

    I would say that if there is one main problem, the best candidate would be a widespread inability to reflect and think critically, and the consequent tendency for people to succumb unthinkingly to their fear of others, and their tendency to always try to find someone else to blame when things go wrong. But then one could also add greed and hunger for power to the list ( although perhps they are functions of the last-mentioned).

    One could also add the incapacity to feel empathy and compassion. Or again the overemphasis on competition over cooperation (at least in the Western capitalist so-called democracies). Another major problem is human exceptionalism and the consequent lack of concern for other species and ecosystems.
  • Astorre
    346
    Some will say the overarching problem is religion or the human tendency to form dogmatic ideologies, and of course, others will say the overarching problem is the loss of religionJanus

    This is where I highlight the problem: claiming one or the other as true; claiming the truth of both, or claiming the futility of everything. That's the problem.

    For the first time in history, an external, universal, generally accepted authority (God, Reason, Inevitable Progress) has disappeared, one that would say, "None of this is accidental; it's all part of a greater, meaningful plan."

    Before, Chaos was an accident amidst necessity (God, Law). Now, Order is perceived as a short-lived, fragile, localized accident amidst universal, fundamental Chaos.

    And at the center of this is a contemporary, raised on the positivist notions of the 19th century.
  • Tom Storm
    10.5k
    The picture of the world that is still being taught today (I can see this from my children’s textbooks) looks roughly like this:

    1. A problem has one correct answer.
    2. Facts are objective.
    3. The world is linear, comprehensible and obeys rules.
    Astorre

    Maybe this varies. The education I had (1970’s-80’s) was borderline relativism. We were taught that things appear different depending on who you are in society and that often there is no wrong answer. In history we were told that facts were interpretations and that history evolves over time, only the dates tend to stay fixed. I paid no attention in maths or science class as those subjects didn’t interest me, but I am assuming from the little I heard that established facts were more critical there. The overarching message of my schooling was “find out for yourself” - read diverse views and come to your own conclusions.
  • Janus
    17.8k
    This is where I highlight the problem: claiming one or the other as true; claiming the truth of both, or claiming the futility of everything. That's the problem.

    For the first time in history, an external, universal, generally accepted authority (God, Reason, Inevitable Progress) has disappeared, one that would say, "None of this is accidental; it's all part of a greater, meaningful plan."

    Before, Chaos was an accident amidst necessity (God, Law). Now, Order is perceived as a short-lived, fragile, localized accident amidst universal, fundamental Chaos.

    And at the center of this is a contemporary, raised on the positivist notions of the 19th century.
    Astorre

    I don't see the rejection of any notion of personal growth as being inevitable on the assumption that order evolves out of chaos. After all, it is well known, unarguably true, that altered states of consciousness and profound insights are possible outside the context of any religion or assumption of a predetermined cosmic order.

    I also don't agree that all or even most of modern secular philosophy is positivistic. It is one thing to say that publicly determinable, that is intersubjectively confirmable, truth is only possible in respect of empirical observations and mathematics and logic, and quite another to say that any proposition outside of those domains is literally meaningless. The latter is positivistic, not so the former. It seems to be very difficult to get some to see the distinction, though.

    In any case these abstruse philosophical considerations do not concern that many people. Anyway traditional religion and all kinds of New Age spiritualism are both alive and well in the world, and there don't seem to be raging controversies concerning those and the more materialistic worldviews going on except in fora like these.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    277
    I agree mostly with your post, and the school logic really is like that, and false for many of the reasons you stated. These kinds of realizations are probably the biggest motivation for me to engage with philosophy, even if nothing "productive" comes out of it.

    Yet people from your closest circle keep telling you about your numerological number, zodiac sign and retrograde Mercury.Astorre

    and chem trails, lmao.
  • Astorre
    346


    Perhaps for some people, this problem seems academic, theoretical, and not particularly interesting.

    However, I'll give a striking example from our modern era. A question that resonated prominently at the last Olympic Games, and which resonates in locker rooms and public restrooms in some countries.

    "Is this person in front of me a man or a woman?"

    This is no longer a philosophical abstraction. Moreover, the old positivist tools (look at chromosomes/genitals) no longer serve as a universal arbiter, and the new ones (asking how a person identifies themselves) only work within certain bubbles and provoke outrage beyond them.

    Perhaps I received an outdated education, but it taught me that gender is an objective biological fact, as solid as the periodic table. And now I live in a world where I can be publicly destroyed for asserting this fact, and physically destroyed for denying it (depending on the country and region). And yet, no one, absolutely no one, can clearly and universally define where the line lies.

    The same person is simultaneously both completely female (by self-identification, documents, hormones, social recognition) and completely male (by chromosomes, gametes, bone structure, and athletic category until 2020).

    Whether these issues concern a small number of people is unknown to me, as I'm not familiar with sociological surveys. However, this is just one real-life example. I wouldn't want to touch on this topic at all, but even with my thick armor, the situation doesn't seem abstract or isolated.
  • Tom Storm
    10.5k
    Perhaps I received an outdated education, but it taught me that gender is an objective biological facAstorre

    I was never taught anything about gender. Nothing I remember. There’s a bunch of threads on the more recent understanding here already.

    I might add that we were also taught that if you want a higher chance of certainty and predictability in your world, you need to be rich. Predictably is a by product of power and wealth is how you obtain control. I think that has a certain logic to it, though it never left me with a motivation to make money.

    Outside of this, my education left me with a view that certainty is there to be overthrown and the world is chaotic. And our flawed democracy was hard won and fragile.
  • Astorre
    346


    In this context, I had no intention of asserting what gender is. My goal was to provide an example.

    I might add that we were also taught that if you want a higher chance of certainty and predictability in your world, you need to be rich. Predictably is a by product of power and wealth is how you obtain control. I think that has a certain logic to it, though it never left me with a motivation to make money.Tom Storm

    In fact, as I can tell from your comments, you have done a great job of addressing the issue I raised at the beginning of this thread.

    And they came to similar conclusions:
    Outside of this, my education left me with a view that certainty is there to be overthrown and the world is chaotic.Tom Storm
    and
    Now, Order is perceived as a short-lived, fragile, localized accident amidst universal, fundamental Chaos.Astorre
  • Astorre
    346


    Thank you for your comment. May I ask you what decision you made for yourself?
  • Janus
    17.8k
    The participation of transwomen in women's' sports is a contentious and difficult issue to solve. The only real problem there is the question of competitive advantage. Otherwise I don't see much of a problem outside of some people's inflexible and ill-considered traditional attitudes.
  • Tom Storm
    10.5k
    And they came to similar conclusions:
    Outside of this, my education left me with a view that certainty is there to be overthrown and the world is chaotic.
    — Tom Storm
    and
    Now, Order is perceived as a short-lived, fragile, localized accident amidst universal, fundamental Chaos.
    — Astorre
    Astorre

    Well I’d say the conclusion is a reasonable one. But it isn’t the new order it’s been the consistent one.

    You may be on to something. It is sobering to consider that I’m one of the first males in my family not to be affected by war or drafted to fight. So for me in my prosperous patch of the West it’s actually been nothing but prosperity and peace.


    Fair.
  • Astorre
    346


    In fact, this post was inspired by a book I recently came across, "The Man Without Qualities" by Robert Musil. The novel is set in Austria, 1913. The world is on the brink of war. The protagonist is a reflection of that era among intellectuals—a man without qualities.

    "The Man Without Qualities" does not denote a lack of talents or qualities, but rather the absence of a clear, fixed identity in the world in which he lives. Unable to "assert himself" or find a permanent calling, the protagonist explores various fields of endeavor. Critics have argued that the protagonist is a mirror of the decaying Austro-Hungarian society and the crisis of European culture in the early 20th century. His amorphousness, detachment, and cynicism reflect the confusion and loss of direction during a period when old values ​​were crumbling and new ones had not yet been invented. The book is imbued with the question posed by contemporaries of that era to the authorities: "Give us a national idea" or "an idea of ​​being." But society received no idea in response.

    As we know, war came in response to this demand. It's likely that the state often uses this method of gaining subjectivity in an era of declining values ​​or "ontological foundations." I'm not claiming this is happening consciously. Rather, I would call the "decline of values" a sign of impending catastrophe.

    Of course, the described "identity crisis" at that time concerned only the intelligentsia and, to a lesser extent, the average person. However, as writers of contemporary history, we have the opportunity to find out the answer to this question: can a person live peacefully with a private understanding of truth, instead of global narratives?
  • Tom Storm
    10.5k
    However, as writers of contemporary history, we have the opportunity to find out the answer to this question: can a person live peacefully with a private understanding of truth, instead of global narratives?Astorre

    Yes. Isn't one of the present problems that people have private understandings of truth instead of global narratives? Isn't it individualism versus community? Isn't it the atomistic nature of society and the small bubbles of intersubjective agreements and communities of truth that have replaced shared visions? At least that's what we often hear.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.6k
    Good point. But when we say that perceptual or felt experience is pre-conceptual, this doesn’t have to indicate there is no ideal component to it. Rather, conceptuality understood as formal, representational predication is a derivative modification of the more primary idealizing process of sense-making.Joshs

    I probably agree, though I'm not sure what you exactly mean with 'ideal' or 'idealizing'. I think there's a directional or agentic component to it, but not necessarily a conscious one.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    277
    not really a decision, just enjoyment of philosophy as a process overtime.
  • L'éléphant
    1.7k
    The picture of the world that is still being taught today (I can see this from my children’s textbooks) looks roughly like this:

    1. A problem has one correct answer.
    2. Facts are objective.
    3. The world is linear, comprehensible and obeys rules.

    But the world we live in keeps showing us that something is wrong. Let me give some examples from my own experience.
    Astorre

    I get your OP. But I sense a dread and weariness in you, like a solo traveler in a jungle of information and online presence. Your example 1-6 are good observations, so long as your feet are firmly planted on the ground. I say this because the information out there can get to us fairly quickly with no filter. And that's the danger. Without us having a sensible mind and firm belief in something, we would all be swept away with the current.

    This story is not about me deciding to shout “THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD” or accusing everyone of incompetence. I simply wanted to share my observations about how people like us adapt to all this. Based on what I’ve seen, I have identified the following groups:Astorre
    1. Retreat into denial and traditionalism: “let’s go back to the roots, everything was clear there.”
    2. Try to stretch the old picture of the world onto the new reality. They argue and try to prove there is one single cause for everything.
    3. Break down: anxiety, depression, apathy. And seem to remain in that state forever.
    4. Go with the flow, no longer trying to build anything; this very flow doesn’t even leave time to think about anything. They surf the waves of uncertainty and stop looking for the “true cause” of everything.
    5. Contemplate and write long forum posts or books like “The Burnout Society.”
    6. Those who instead of the old Newtonian world built a new "solid" world of data, metric and "scientifically proven". They believe neither in God nor in progress, but in tests, randomized studies, effective altruism, AI safety, longevity studies.
    8. Those who are looking for an explanation in numerology, astrology, or tarot.
    9. Those who are developing their own ontology
    10. Maybe someone else I missed.
    Astorre

    I wouldn't go so far as to confirm that the above are now the state of the world. To be fair, In some degree, people have been behaving like this for some time now. There's superstition, denial, feeling of defeat, stubbornness, dogmatism, and disbelief in everything.

    But the stable and firm actions of those who are empirical and practical have continued to influence the world by producing cures for deadly diseases, structural codes for infrastructures necessary for our societies to function, and protections for the food and drinking supplies.

    Take this with a grain of salt: have faith in those with a conviction to do it right with the world. It is true, individually, we are not mighty, but with a community of experts, scientists, mathematicians and statisticians, specialist, philosophy scholars, and sociologists who work during the hours we are asleep, we are in good hands.

    Count the people you interact daily on a personal level: this is the size of your world and that's all that matters.
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