That’s interesting and worth thinking about. I think that is why everyone accuses the other side of being a cult. We can’t imagine these broad groups actually are full of real people. A broad group like “maga” or “socialists” is a shallow box. Individual, actual people, are deep and too complex for such gross generalizations. But we get to feel better than millions of people if we allow ourselves to hate these groups. Viewing them as sheep in a cult lets us not look past the shallow boxes at the real people. — Fire Ologist

You speak of coping skills that are necessary because we are limited and have pushed way beyond our limits. Our brains and energy levels are being overtaxed. Desmond Morris, a zoologist, explains the problem in his book "The Naked Ape".

Religion isn’t opposed to science. It can be if you want. But science doesn’t know very much either. And morality is an utter mess. Religion of sorts goes all the way back to the beginning of human history. Religion is literally what you make of it. It can be, and has been, a force for good. Like science can be, and has been, but is often wrong, and can be used to make life worse for many. — Fire Ologist

Here, I think we need to be more specific. The belief that a God made a man from mud and a woman from his rib, goes against science, and what good can come out of anything that is that far from science?
This involves morals and justice, so it really matters to me.

I would like to discuss socialist and capitalist and your objection to classifying people and generalizing discriptions of " what those people do". Maybe if I say the capitalists are the immoral people and the socialists are the moral people, you can see what is wrong with those generalizations. You generalize and find fault with groups of people but defend the actions of the German Gestapo and that is worrisome.

I feel sorry for the people used by ICE and those sent to war. Recently, the moral crisis faced by military personnel has come up in public discussion. I am sure the moral crisis also comes with ICE.

You generalize and find fault with groups of people but defend the actions of the German Gestapo and that is worrisome. — Athena

I don't think this is anything but disingenuous and inflammatory.

I note you do not engage any criticism of your position, consistently.

You speak of coping skills — Athena

I do? I spoke of the shallowness of identity politics.

You … defend the actions of the German Gestapo — Athena

Really??

Where did I do that? You seem to say things like the above so easily. You come off as divisive and extreme, as you bemoan the division in America.

Anyone who breaks the law deserves punishment, including ICE employees. Period. But that goes for immigrants too. All people who immigrate to the US without honoring our due process of immigration law should expect a visit from ICE. Period. Time for everyone to take some responsibility for the mess that is US immigration. ICE are just doing what we all hired them to do.

Work to change the law if you don’t like what ICE has to do to enforce the law. Yell at the leadership and the legislators. But leave the boots on the ground out of your fantasies about what the Gestapo was.

I feel sorry for the people used by ICE and those sent to war. — Athena

Then don’t call them Gestapo to make some political point. Would you say “Gestapo!” to their spouses and children? As they leave in the morning to go off to work?

I think we need to be more specific. — Athena

Please do.

The belief that a God made a man from mud and a woman from his rib, goes against science, and what good can come out of anything that is that far from science?
This involves morals and justice, so it really matters to me. — Athena

So I heard someone explain that the religious person sees her new baby as a gift from God, while the scientific person sees her new baby as the wondrous workings of cellular biology. But that is stupid. The religious person can see her new baby as the wondrous workings of cellular biology AND a gift from God. And it’s the same thing with creation. Life evolved from primordial soup into men and women over billions of years AND, God created man and woman, male and female, to complement and complete one another, and be as one flesh in marriage…... Thousands of years of good have followed from that story (and I venture to say, always will).

People who think the earth is 6000 years old, or that there was an actual adult male rib involved in the birth of the first woman, on day 6… - that’s weird stuff. The Bible isn’t a science book. But you thinking science can replace religion is missing the point of both science and religion if you ask me. How about the Broadway play Wicked - can any good come out of that being as it is so far from science? Or when someone says “Broadway has to be banned because nothing good can come from something so far from science,” do they maybe not understand what Broadway is for people? Or science?

You sound authoritarian about all religion. Some of us religious folks can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Look at the problem of Islamists taking over European and North American cities. Who cares what Muslims all believe about God, and what their religion says is truth. Just like who cares what any religion says. It’s not the religious beliefs that actually cause the problems for anyone who doesn’t agree with them. It’s when religions try to enforce their religious law in secular, shared society. It’s when political leaders use religion to spark emotion to bolster political action and law. We only have to care if politicians tell us to wear face coverings, stone people for not being Muslim, yell out their prayer calls in front of a Christian Church stopping traffic while banning public Christmas celebrations (or crashing cars into them) etc. We don’t have to care what religious leaders think and say (remember free speech? Freedom of religion and assembly?) - we only have to care about the politics and the criminality - are these lawful in our society or not? Do Islamist takeovers of Western cities allow for freedom and equal rights and prosperity for anyone? Or not.

I agree with you that religion masquerading in politics needs to tamp itself down. I hate hearing politicians sound like they are preaching, under any religion. It’s shitty marketing - of religion AND whatever stupid political point they are failing to make as they bring in “God” and “evil” to turn the conversation emotional.

The closest religion should get to politics is in a way that is utterly non-sectarian. Government leaders should not appear to favor this faith over that one, nor favor atheists over theists.

Yes, native and indigenous peoples knew the importance of living in harmony and balance with their ecosystem. We can learn a lot from them. — Punshhh

Our public broadcasting station is doing many shows about native Americans, and usually their spirituality is brought up as a driving force for them. For them, we are in a spiritual battle to save the very life of our planet. I don't think that spirituality goes well with our major religions. What do you think?

The left. The not-‘MAGA’. (MAGA, that pejorative expression that helps “progressives” own the fascist/authoritarian haters). Maybe “wokeness” triggers a shut-down of communication, but so does just saying MAGA is the easy example of “not-thinking”. (Although it didn’t shut me down apparently.) — Fire Ologist

I had to do a lot of work to track down an apparent disagreement about ICE. I don't know which side you think is the right one. :groan: We shouldn't have sides in the first place because now we have an argument against sides rather than the issues. It was Trump who created MAGA. Somehow this is tangled up with "that pejorative expression that helps 'progressives' own the fascist/authoritarian haters".

Anyway, it appears you were the one who brought up fascist/authoritarian, which today is expressed through ICE, but in the past, it was the German Gestapo. Our rule by law is being shredded, and that puts the democracy of the US in as much danger as the Germans were when Hilter and his chosen people consolidated power in their hands, making it possible for the Gestapo to have poorly restricted power. This leds to terrible things being done to people who lost all legal protections.

I don't know, do we agree or disagree on this?

I do? I spoke of the shallowness of identity politics. — Fire Ologist

Yes, generalizing, categorizing, and the framework of prejudice are coping skills that become essential when the population is so large that we become strangers.

AI first goes into panic about "prejudice", but eventually explains how it improves our survival. What is important here is recognizing our limits and the need to get real about them, instead of denying our limits and beating ourselves and others up for not being better human beings.

The reality of unnaturally large populations makes prejudice necessary not only to protect ourselves, but also to conserve energy. Our brains do many things to help us conserve energy.

The way to cope with prejudice is by learning good manners and taking responsibility for acting on them. This is something @AmadeusD refuses to do, so I chose to avoid him. Rules greatly improve how we live on this planet with far more people than we can possibly know.
1. We respect everyone. It doesn't matter if the other is the mayor of a bum, or looks different.
2. We protect the dignity of others. (That is why social security is based on age, not need).
3. We do everything with integrity.
With those rules, what can go wrong?

ICE are just doing what we all hired them to do. — Fire Ologist

So was the Gestapo just following orders. There are some good stories and movies coming out of that time in history. A fiction movie I really like is "The Reader". A woman who can not read is accused of a war crime. She could have proven she was not guilty but she was too ashamed to let people know she couldn't read so she kept that hidden. She became a good Nazi because that was the only way to get a good job. She obeyed orders without question because, like most Germans, she believed that her nation was in the right and a good nation, just as Americans believe in America. Also, she had no reason to question until a young man began reading to her and exposed her to a classical education. While this is fiction it is based on facts of the nature of things in that time in history, and I think we are in big trouble now because of replacing our education with the German model of education for technology.
We are now technologically smart but not wise.

There are important points here. Number 1, I do not see America as better than Germany. Humans are only human, and they want to believe their nation or their tribe is the best. We welcome news that makes us feel good and makes us think we are doing the right thing, and a small backward nation on the other side of the world is a threat to the US and must be bombed, destroying the lives of millions of people. Or so the Germans believed, and so do the Russians today.

If you all want to throw tomatoes at me for what I am saying, go ahead. So were the Germans only following orders, and what ICE is doing is not better than the Gestapo? We made it law so people opposed to war are not forced to fight in them. Vietnam and the following wars were wrong. Men and women are coming home from these wars traumatized and sometimes committing suicide in part because what they had to do was immoral.

I am not saying we should ignore immigration laws. I am saying we should be decent human beings and treat everyone decently. NEVER, EVER SHOULD CHILDREN BE TRAUMATIZED. NEVER SHOULD A HUMAN BEING BE HUMILATED BY FORCING THEM TO BE NUDE IN PUBLIC. LOOK AT OUR MORALS, AND WHEN ORDERS VIOLATE MORALITY, THAT IS A PROBLEM TO BE CORRECTED. The behavior of ICE is worthy of a country run by thugs, not a civilized nation. And for crying out loud, the US is not the only country with an immigration problem. This is a global problem, and it will require a global solution.

Who remembers the Peace Corps? John Kennedy was a wonderful leader, and I would do all in my power to get another leader like him.

Then don’t call them Gestapo to make some political point. Would you say “Gestapo!” to their spouses and children? As they leave in the morning to go off to work? — Fire Ologist

Would you please address the issues instead of attacking me? Here is a presentation of the Gestapo issue. Know I am passionate about the wrongs that have led up to this moment in history, and my thoughts on this subject come from knowledge of the history of education. My grandmother defended democracy in the classroom. My mother sang for USO shows, and my father dealt with the piles of bodies in the death camps. If you want to argue the issues fine, but I expect you to do that respectfully and with honor for all those who died defending our democracy.


What the military oath of enlistment says about legal and ...

ABC News
https://abcnews.go.com › Politics › story
4 days ago — The call from Democratic veterans in Congress highlights the federal law that dictates the conduct of members of the military.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pentagon-launching-review-democratic-sen-mark-kelly/story?id=127827953

If we focus on history, philosophy, and the concerns some people have today, the discussion could be much more interesting the pointing out my faults. :lol:

I want to expand the understanding of the gestapo problem. I can't use AI, but I hope I can link to it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hitler+and+the+gestapo&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS990US990&oq=Hitler+and+the+gestapo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRiPAjIHCAIQIRiPAjIHCAMQIRiPAtIBCTEwMzUwajBqN6gCCLACAfEFwzIOWqMQGCLxBcMyDlqjEBgi&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The words that jump out at me are "without legal constraint". And "placing the secret police outside the traditional state and judicial oversight." I think that can be effectively done by firing everyone who disagrees with a leader, and putting in people who are 100% pleasing to the leader and are also unfit for the job. Like they are not opposed to the leader because they know enough to have good judgment.

Does anyone want to argue that Trump is not ruling as though he is above the law, and that he is not protecting his power by taking down everyone who opposes him? Is there any doubt he incited the attempt to take over the Capitol Building, and that he pardoned everyone found guilty of a crime and serving time that he could?

For some of us, the Athenian system of getting rid of tyrants was an important part of defending democracy.

The creation of the institution of ostracism, whereby the people decided collectively whether to banish a single citizen for ten years, provided not only a mechanism for the symbolic expression of democratic power, but also a means for the practical and ideological distinction between oligarchic and democratic rule. https://online.ucpress.edu/ca/article-abstract/19/2/232/25458/Exile-Ostracism-and-the-Athenian-Democracy?redirectedFrom=fulltext

A discussion of the difference between an oligarchic and democratic rule could be interesting.

ICE are just doing what we all hired them to do. — Fire Ologist

We did not hire ICE to shoot people in the leg. In fact, some states what ICE to stay out and respect state sovereignty. Shooting people in the leg is against the law, and if our young people in ICE follow orders that should not be made, they can be charged with a crime. Trump's brutality was on display many years ago....

Esper: Trump asked about shooting protesters

NPR
https://www.npr.org › 2022/05/09 › trump-esper-book-...
May 9, 2022 — Former Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper said President Donald Trump inquired about shooting protesters amid the unrest that took place after George Floyd's ...
Donald Trump 'suggested shooting migrants in the legs'

BBC
https://www.bbc.com › world-us-canada-49901878
Oct 2, 2019 — He pushed aides towards extreme methods of deterring crossings at the southern border, a book says.

That is against the law, and so we come to arguing about if ICE and the Gestapo are that different. Forcing someone into the public nude, is wrong. Traumatizing children is wrong. What is the problem causing nice and civilized people to not see the wrong? How is this different from what happened in Germany?

I am not saying we should ignore immigration laws. I am saying we should be decent human beings and treat everyone decently. NEVER, EVER SHOULD CHILDREN BE TRAUMATIZED. NEVER SHOULD A HUMAN BEING BE HUMILATED BY FORCING THEM TO BE NUDE IN PUBLIC. LOOK AT OUR MORALS, AND WHEN ORDERS VIOLATE MORALITY, THAT IS A PROBLEM TO BE CORRECTED. The behavior of ICE is worthy of a country run by thugs, not a civilized nation. And for crying out loud, the US is not the only country with an immigration problem. This is a global problem, and it will require a global solution. — Athena

You are a good person. I can see that. I don’t mean to sound like I am attacking anyone else, except maybe when I am atracking all of us, me included (if “attack” is even the right word).

I may disagree with your analysis, and your appraisal of certain facts.

But I do agree that we can no longer ignore immigration laws (totally agree). The world of civilized people (which is everyone who wants to join) can, if we want, settle our borders, and protect all our cultures.

We need to ignore those who want to destroy each other, make the peace, and then enforce it against those who keep destroying. Right?

Instead of picking on ICE agents, shouldn’t we figure out what their job should be, by writing better immigration laws, clarifying reasonable suspicion, facilitating due process, whatever we must to make borders and immigration rational? We don’t simultaneously fight our own law enforcement. Quite the opposite, local police should be working really closely with ICE, not against them, because they know where trouble is in their towns, and more importantly, where it isn’t. There are so many things we could do better.

No one wants to harm children or terrorize otherwise law abiding, hard working people - that is not anyone’s goal!.

And yes, this is a global problem. We do not know how to walk and chew gum. We don’t know how to protect our beloved cultures without hating someone else’s. That is the main struggle of history, both inside the tribe and among the many tribes. Muslims don’t know how to be Muslim in a liberal democracy of free men and women. Christians don’t know how to be saved without damning everyone else. Americans don’t know how to be proud and “first” without judging all others “third world” and over-exploiting opportunity. Poor people don’t know how to be grateful and content. Rich people don’t known how to be humble and charitable and sacrificial. Trump doesn’t know how to be strong, but not a bully. Righties don’t know how to be absolute, yet merciful and vulnerable. Lefties don’t know how to stand with the oppressed without oppressing and moralizing the “bad people” (or this group or that group….).

It is because all of us are too content to be divided up into our safe groups of victims, blaming the other groups for our own self-inflicted wounds. We love our precious misery. It feeds our cathartic anger, that we take out on our own brothers, who we should love, and instead allow ourselves to stomp on the immigrant or stomp on ICE.

And we refuse to learn anything.

Well, we’ve learned a lot, but that is just for yelling against each other - we haven’t learned how to actually do better, to build a true civilization, where justice is present for at least most of us.

I still don’t mean to attack anyone.

Many countries need to almost stop new immigration for some time, figure out how to offer amnesty even to millions of migrants who are currently in those countries illegally, find out if they want to stay, and be done with the framework. But even rich America can’t assume responsibility for the world’s poor indefinitely, so as borders open up again on solid ground the border can never look like Biden’s border ever again. This will cost everyone a lot (so we will wallow in hell and Hope shit works out….)

We need all countries to love their own identities and take responsibility for their own identities, clarify where the lines are, and clean this shit up. This means there are different laws in all of the different countries and when in Rome, we all assimilate as the Roman’s do. We don’t go somewhere to change it. It will change if it’s own, just like each who immigrates will be changed. Everyone, of course keeps their own heart and culture and religion, but everyone also makes room to find goodness and inspiration in the culture that welcomes you home, your country, or if an immigrant, your new country.

There are as many reasons for all of us to love each other as there are to hate each other.

We choose to find the reasons to hate. We don’t have to, but we do. Hating the other tribe is the easiest way to escape our own guilt for hating in the first place (“they are the haters and the evil ones!”) - we only hate other people and cultures out of our own weaknesses, and no one wants to admit they are weak.

We have made a complex problem for ourselves. We keep handing it down to the next generation. When will there be enough people who are brave enough to forgive past injustice, and heal, and claim justice instead for an actually better future we might participate in? The solution is not whether left or right is wrong; It’s in how both are inadequate without each other - something new, that carries with it the same good that was and is always there.

You are a good person. I can see that. I don’t mean to sound like I am attacking anyone else, except maybe when I am atracking all of us, me included (if “attack” is even the right word). — Fire Ologist

Thank goodness! I was wondering what in hell went wrong with a great discussion. I will get back to you as soon as I can. I think I have a broken foot, and I just learned that an urgent care place can X-ray my foot. I hope to get this done before washing dishes for a huge holiday crowd at a community center. If I don't get back soon, give me a holler.

How is this different from what happened in Germany? — Athena

Because, if you read a summary of what happened - they are totally different stories. This weird need to align Trump with Hitler is pathological (not you, specifically).

Instead of picking on ICE agents, — Fire Ologist

:lol: I woke up this morning thinking of the young lady who is flying somewhere with her mother. A reporter was at the airport, checking out people's opinions about proper clothing for a flyer. The rumor is that those who dress well are less likely to behave in an antisocial way. The young lady was wearing pajamas despite her mother's objection, and the mother was dressed to say, "I understand social values, and I dress and behave properly". The young lady thought only of herself and her own comfort.

I hope you wonder why I think that is related to ICE. This is not going to work if you do not wonder what in heck I am talking about, because what I am saying is totally different from anything you have thought. I will give you a hint. What I am saying is about cultural change that followed a change in education. I am talking about the consequences of replacing our domestic education, which was based on the Athenian model of education, with the German model of education for technology for military, and industrial purposes.

If anyone understands what I am saying, I will be surprised. I will give you a hint. I am talking about capitalism with no morals and the Military-Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about, and what this has to do with cultural breakdown, and why Trump is popular, and what this has to do with my objection to ICE. All of this is equal to the young lady not giving a shit what her mother thinks is appropriate, or how her mother feels about being in public with a daughter wearing pajamas.

:lol: I live in apartment C4. I have been told that it is military code for explosives. Seeing that young girl not give a shit about her mother's feelings reminds me of when my daughter was in high school, and the popular opinion that education for technology would make our children smarter than their parents. There is some truth to that, but being smart at the expense of wisdom is not a good trade-off. In the 1970s, we declared a youth crisis. We did not suddenly have an explosion of unfit parents. We changed the purpose of education, and now our leader seems to be following Hitler's playbook. It is not this one man making the nation as it is. Is the change in the purpose of education. :lol: Maybe ICE can wear pajamas when they are flown to a city that does not want their presence.

Muslims don’t know how to be Muslim in a liberal democracy of free men and women. Christians don’t know how to be saved without damning everyone else. Americans don’t know how to be proud and “first” without judging all others “third world” and over-exploiting opportunity. Poor people don’t know how to be grateful and content. Rich people don’t known how to be humble and charitable and sacrificial. Trump doesn’t know how to be strong, but not a bully. Righties don’t know how to be absolute, yet merciful and vulnerable. Lefties don’t know how to stand with the oppressed without oppressing and moralizing the “bad people” (or this group or that group….). — Fire Ologist

That is a different thread. :grin: I put a video about capitalism in this thread "What Capitalism is Not (specifically, it is not markets)." What you said leads me to believe you never lost a lot of weight because you were not eating, so the children could be fed. I doubt if you stayed up all night holding a sick child because you couldn't afford to rush the child to the hospital. I don't know if economics is a philosophical issue, but democracy, as we know it, had roots in Athens, where the need to defend Athens led to giving everyone who fought in the war a degree of political power. This moment in time changed the people's understanding of the gods and cultural values. To clarify, political power is extremely important to our ability to provide for our families.

There was a time when the Muslims were far more advanced than Christian Europe. We owe them a huge debt for preserving knowledge that Christians had destroyed. I would love to chew on what Evangelical Christians and Orthodox Muslims share in common. I don't see a difference between them.

Trump's followers love him as he is. I have posted a video of Trump in the WrestleMania ring a few times. He intentionally displayed what a brute he can be to a cheering crowd. All those accusations of what this group and that group can not do, is WrestleMania mentality. When the US replaced its domestic education with education for military and industrial purposes, it replaced independent thinking with "groupthink". My grandmother would say, We teach children math to teach them how to think. New math does not have the same practical purpose. Education for college has cheated millions out of an education that benefits the families of the working class and the advancement of civilization.

I started wondering, what should we think about? After reading a geology book, I have become concerned that we don't think about the world's resources and their connection to everything else, including riches, poverty, and war. If we had a king, this wouldn't matter, but as a democracy, perhaps there are some things we should be aware of. — Athena

Is it because there's some other thread that this discussion continued from that let it spiral down politics alone?

It seems to me that you asked for a more general question about "what we should think about". As in, what should a regular citizen in a democracy think about in their day to day life so that society addresses issues of the world and maintain a healthy morality in that society?

Topics that need to be thought about as a form of philosophical foundation of being in a society.

Is that the basis of the question here?

We have made a complex problem for ourselves. We keep handing it down to the next generation. When will there be enough people who are brave enough to forgive past injustice, and heal, and claim justice instead for an actually better future we might participate in? The solution is not whether left or right is wrong; It’s in how both are inadequate without each other - something new, that carries with it the same good that was and is always there. — Fire Ologist

Please! We did not keep handing our problems down to the next generation. Our democracy comes out of the Enlightenment, and a belief that, as we learned more through asking questions and attempting to answer them with scientific and philosophical thinking, we could improve life on earth. Our education was based on the Greek and Roman models for independent thinking and good moral judgment.

But like the 200-year-old Athens, we won a major war, and we got too smart for our britches and too dependent on the economics that made the US rich during a time of war, because war made the other nations dependent on the US, until they recovered from the war. As happened to Athens, this led to a poorly thought-out military action and a growing dependence on military might. We have evolved as Athens evolved, and we did not avoid the mistake Athens made of making war on a defenseless island in a desperate attempt to maintain their wartime economy.

I am running out of time, but I still believe in the Enlightenment dream of a better world, and that education can make the difference. I also believe religion is the problem! The Germans who followed Hitler were Christians, and I am sure Jesus would not like ICE, but well-meaning Christians will support it just as they did in Germany. Germans reported on each other, as US citizens are being encouraged to report on each other, and Jesus plainly said, do not turn to Rome and report your neighbors. We all know the bible right? Depending on that one book, instread of knowledge in general, is much easier and don't worry, God is in control. :halo:

Ok you win. Religion is the problem and the enlightened ones like Mandani and AOC and Kelly are our only rational hope for a better world. I’ll tell everyone at Mass this Sunday not to read the Bible or hope in “God” anymore. Should help speed up the process towards utopia.

It’s been 300 years since the enlightenment. When do you think people will reason this out and we can all have affordable health insurance and free cocoa pebbles? Maybe as soon as Trump is ousted?

I happen to think ideology is the problem - religion is jus the worst offender. Its adherence, not the content of the ideology.

Athena wont talk to me, but I agree with your critiques. She seems to just float above the conversation she's trying to have. An odd approach.

Is it because there's some other thread that this discussion continued from that let it spiral down politics alone?

It seems to me that you asked for a more general question about "what we should think about". As in, what should a regular citizen in a democracy think about in their day to day life so that society addresses issues of the world and maintain a healthy morality in that society?

Topics that need to be thought about as a form of philosophical foundation of being in a society.

Is that the basis of the question here? — Christoffer

In order to form a more perfect union, that does seem to be required. It sure would be nice to use the AI explanation of ancient Greek politics and its relationship to virtues. I think every city should have readily available information about the local resources and what decisions are necessary for the continued growth of the city. And maybe we should know on a national level our supply and rate of consumption of such things as oil, and what oil has to do with our banking and wars. All this concern about resources and rates of consumption is set off by a book about geology. Geology and geography do not seem to be required in our education system, and they are not a subjects of news stories.

It saddens me that I live in a nation that claims to fight evil and does so in the most evil way of destroying people's lives and their cities. And the citizens agree to this without knowledge. Socrates was very distressed when Athens lost the war with Sparta, and he wanted to know what Athens did wrong that caused them to lose the war.

On a more personal level. The homeless problem is getting increasingly frightening. Thanksgiving Day, my neighbors and I found another rent increase notices on our doors. Most of us are retired and have very low incomes. We are already in the least expensive apartment complex. There is no place for us to go. I am sure most citizens do not want us living on the streets. I think the purpose of democracy is to have a better union that protects people with planning and laws. How well do we understand the old people with walkers who struggle to cross the street, and why they are homeless? What does make America great again mean when we are looking more and more like the poor countries with beggars on the streets? We should kill the evil people on the other side of the world to defend this?

Ok you win. Religion is the problem and the enlightened ones like Mandani and AOC and Kelly are our only rational hope for a better world. I’ll tell everyone at Mass this Sunday not to read the Bible or hope in “God” anymore. Should help speed up the process towards utopia.

It’s been 300 years since the enlightenment. When do you think people will reason this out and we can all have affordable health insurance and free cocoa pebbles? Maybe as soon as Trump is ousted? — Fire Ologist

I am sorry. :broken: We have achieved more in 300 years than non-scientific people achieved in thousands of years. This is where I stop arguing with you because I do not like to argue with believers and trigger bad feelings.