What do you think of my "will to live"?

GreekSkeptic

(I don't know if anyone has approached or talked about this in the same way as me. If someone did, please recommend me his book.)

I will try to convey my thoughts to you as much clear and honest as I can, noting that English is not my maternal language.

This idea is rooted deeply in my personal experiences. I'm nineteen as I'm writing this. I believe I've lived a life with exaggerate standards that control my feelings, tell me why I live, and constrict my thinking in a box. People around me always told me what to expect to feel from things I do and I always thought they were undoubtedly right. Me being good at something or finding interest at something somehow meant I am happy and everything's great to others. For some reason, I was also good at everything, I was also the smartest, brightest, prettiest etc. Well as I said, I believed them, so I tried really hard to live up to as others saw me, accepting their perspective as true.

After a period of time, I fell into an overwhelming emptiness. I noticed that doing things and expressing myself in a certain way did not make me any "happier", so I thought that I was doing something wrong. It wasn't that I thought I haven't found that one thing that will fill up an empty bucket inside me. It was that there wasn't a bucket to fill up at all. And I really stressed out myself to the maximum, if you get what I mean. Feeling unworthy of everything, feeling incapable, frustrated, confused, trapped inside a reality I thought I was not built for. So, what one might describe as pain, came early. And I do not want to get graphic here. The existential torture and solitude was at its peak. Well, it still is but I'm more aware. This emotional anxiety, fatigue, confusion, dread felt as more real than anything I've ever felt before. It showed me not how things are, but how things are not. It's like it started to strip this "box of thought" away, and it was really really painful because I was hanging between a thread of "am I doing something wrong?" and "is this right?". I think this was when I was fourteen years old. Basically everything I perceived as truth I saw it collapsed, from how I feel for myself to how I feel for other people. Well, to this day I don't know if I chose it or it just happened without me realizing, but I went on with accepting what was happening to me. I let it "destroy" me in a sense. And I also chased it.

It sounds as self-destructive maybe I don't know, but I chased this kind of feeling. I tried to find ways to bring myself to the ground when alone. I told myself how bad I am, how unworthy, how ridiculous...all these bad stuff you know. It felt true, constant and honest. I paraphrase Descartes, "I suffer, therefore I exist". That is my idea now. Because it's not that I don't have what some would say as happy memories. I've done many things with people and I indeed find interest in many many things. From learning history to understanding physics to study and reading to go for hikes to swimming to kickboxing. It's just that all these moments feel meaningless. At the end of the day, I always asked myself "What did I gain from this?", "What was the meaning of this?"... I don't know but, pain feels more transcendent through time. It's what stays to remind me that that's not how I believe it is or my ego is trying to flourish again. It's like it outsmarts happiness. Not in a sense of power, because as I stated before happiness does not feel real, but in a more cunning way like it was always there waiting for me to notice it.

I haven't found a single thing to "save" myself, but helping and uplifting others is a whole new world to me now. Being good for society is interesting. Since I can't help myself, I'll help others. Now I would say for sure that that's something that keeps me here, and for the first time it does not feel superficial or illusionary - at least for now. Maybe that's the kind of hope I hoped for when I was younger. People shouldn't bear the pain of themselves. People shouldn't endure the pain of their own existence - and that pain is what either evolves them or destroys them. It seems absolute, yet it's true. I don't know where I belong in these two parts of the equation. I don't know whether I'm evolving or destroying myself. But I don't want others to feel the same things I'm feeling. Not in a messianic way, no. But for some reason, I believe not being here - even with the thought that someone, somewhere, sometime would need my help - is a red cross I put on myself after a very, very long time.

So, all this time, I keep asking myself "Why I won't kill myself tomorrow?". I discussed this with some people throughout the years. The answers I get were "I hope for a better life.", "I live to enjoy and be happy", "For hope.". Superficial. It all sounds superficial to me. Hope in a better life sounds like living doing nothing and expect things to get better. Thus, I came up with the answer to this question a few weeks ago. It matches with my experiences when I think of it. I’ll be disappointed if things change and I won’t be there to see it. I’m curious to see if I’ll ever feel something real. If I’ll ever break the void, the numbness, the existential torture. I’m curious to live and see if I’ll experience something new, and that “new” might be the real I’m looking for.

(I apologize if my writing got you bored or tired. Thanks for reading.)

Tom Storm

↪GreekSkeptic

Hello. I don’t think it is unusual at your age to feel chronic feelings of emptiness and nihilism, regardless of one’s background or fortunes.

I had a similar experience in my late teens and also found that being of use to others and doing things to support the community took my attention off my own experience and broadened my perspective. It took a year or two, but I gradually stopped feeling empty.

While I don’t believe there is any “meaning of life” style answer to human yearnings and existential dread, I do think we are surrounded by multiple meanings, and it becomes hard to avoid finding purpose and sense of solidarity if you engage with others. It’s easy for many of us to become obsessed with our own thought processes, judgements and reflections in a way that is unhealthy, and often having some strategies for getting out of your own head is helpful.

DifferentiatingEgg

After a period of time, I fell into an overwhelming emptiness. I noticed that doing things and expressing myself in a certain way did not make me any "happier", so I thought that I was doing something wrong. It wasn't that I thought I haven't found that one thing that will fill up an empty bucket inside me. It was that there wasn't a bucket to fill up at all. And I really stressed out myself to the maximum, if you get what I mean. Feeling unworthy of everything, feeling incapable, frustrated, confused, trapped inside a reality I thought I was not built for. So, what one might describe as pain, came early. And I do not want to get graphic here. The existential torture and solitude was at its peak. Well, it still is but I'm more aware. This emotional anxiety, fatigue, confusion, dread felt as more real than anything I've ever felt before. — GreekSkeptic

Nietzsche details this as The Hour of Great Contempt.

the greatest thing ye can experience? It is the hour of great contempt. The hour in which even your happiness becometh loathsome unto you, and so also your reason and virtue.

The hour when ye say: “What good is my happiness! It is poverty and pollution and wretched self-complacency. But my happiness should justify existence itself!” — Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

Wayfarer

I haven't found a single thing to "save" myself, but helping and uplifting others is a whole new world to me now. Being good for society is interesting. Since I can't help myself, I'll help others. — GreekSkeptic

Stick with that! Can't go wrong with it, unless you put unrealistic expectations on it (like seeing to gain from it.)

180 Proof

I keep asking myself "Why I won't kill myself tomorrow?" ... I’ll be disappointed if things change and I won’t be there to see it. I’m curious to see if I’ll ever feel something real. If I’ll ever break the void, the numbness, the existential torture. I’m curious to live and see if I’ll experience something new, and that “new” might be the real I’m looking for. — GreekSkeptic

Yes. :fire:

Patterner

So, all this time, I keep asking myself "Why I won't kill myself tomorrow?". — GreekSkeptic

You don't know what has been worth staying alive for? A few weeks ago, you came up with an idea for an approach that, while not specific, you hope will eventually be shown to have been a good decision. But you don't know why you didn't end it over the previous several years?

And you are not aware of any specific thing that has been lacking, that you have never been able to achieve, that is the root cause of your feelings?

I haven't found a single thing to "save" myself, but helping and uplifting others is a whole new world to me now. Being good for society is interesting. Since I can't help myself, I'll help others. Now I would say for sure that that's something that keeps me here, and for the first time it does not feel superficial or illusionary - at least for now. — GreekSkeptic

An excellent idea. We don't help others only for their benefit. It is of great benefit to ourselves.

LuckyR

↪GreekSkeptic

Several things. First, I am happy that you found something on your own, bigger than yourself, to work towards. And in my experience, having tangible goals to work towards are the answers to such questions as "why am I here?", "what it all for?" and "why go on?"
True, goals such as accumulate wealth and seek continuous physical pleasure can and commonly do sustain folks in the short haul, they don't have a reputation for being enough in the long term.

Ultimately, everyone will spend the vast majority of eternity in a state of nonexistance, why cut short the brief flicker of time you'll actually exist?

GreekSkeptic

I appreciate all of your comments. I'm really trying hard to explain to people how I perceive things because I aspire to open a Philosophy Club in my university. However, there is more for me to uncover and show you. I'll do so in other discussions. This is just the "first part".

Astorre

↪GreekSkeptic

My opinion on your question will probably differ somewhat from what people expect to hear at a psychologist's office, but I'd like to share it with you.

What you called "the empty bucket inside you" is called "the will to life" by Schopenhauer, and "the will to power" by Nietzsche. Schopenhauer, in his time, demonstrated how the presence of this very will to live leads to suffering and proposed a solution in the form of suppressing it. Nietzsche, on the contrary, argued that this will is the basis of movement, and whoever has more of it is stronger.

I don't like either of these hints. The thing is, as far as I know, humanity still doesn't know what fills this "bucket" or the exact nature of this phenomenon. If humanity knew the answer to this question, the world would long ago have been filled with artificial creations—like robots with their own wills.

Christianity also has much to say about working with the will. But it's more about harnessing your willpower than about creating it from nothingness.

In the army, there's also a way to awaken your willpower if it's completely absent: create such unbearable living conditions that it's born, even on the brink of losing your life.

I think in your case, it's all a bit different.

From the way your post is written, from the way you described it, I believe you've done a great deal of self-reflection. And you did it with the goal of filling that "empty bucket," or more precisely, finding something with which to fill that empty bucket. And so that this something would be truly important. At the same time, I suggest you look at your "empty bucket" differently.

This emotional anxiety, fatigue, confusion, dread felt as more real than anything I've ever felt before. It showed me not how things are, but how things are not — GreekSkeptic

The words are very reminiscent of modern books on psychology or psychiatry. This text is used in these books to describe the phenomenon they call "depression."

However, as I said above, I’d like to offer a different perspective: you do not lack a “will to live” at all — the very fact that you keep trying to fill that empty bucket proves the will is there, and it’s strong. This very striving already indicates that you have a will to live. You just haven't yet found what to fill it with—something worthy, meaningful, and important. This means that what you're describing above is consistent with the absence of something you believe is worthy in your "bucket," or with the fact that you haven't yet found it, but not with the will to fill that "bucket."

Your will isn't aimed at "living," but at "understanding why to live." It's truly a different kind of will—almost exploratory, almost scientific (congratulations, you're a philosopher!).

The thing is, like probably many participants here on the forum, and I myself, too, are searching for what to fill that bucket with. It's not scary to live in this search. This state is similar to “The Man Without Qualities” by Robert Musil (maybe I’ll write a separate topic about this).

All I can recommend to you now is not to panic and not to rush. Moreover, as you will gradually discover, even if you read 8-10 hours of various books every day, you will always find something surprising to behold the following day. Unless you forget how to be surprised.

GreekSkeptic

↪Astorre

I appreciate your comment. It is indeed very insightful. However, I want to point out two important things.

It's not that I'm seeking for the right ingredient to fill up the empty bucket. It's that "the empty bucket" itself is an illusion.

It was that there wasn't a bucket to fill up at all. — GreekSkeptic

I believe fulfillment itself is something structured. That's what I call "box of thought".

This emotional anxiety, fatigue, confusion, dread felt as more real than anything I've ever felt before. It showed me not how things are, but how things are not. It's like it started to strip this "box of thought" away, and it was really really painful because I was hanging between a thread of "am I doing something wrong?" and "is this right?". — GreekSkeptic

Basically everything I perceived as truth I saw it collapsed, from how I feel for myself to how I feel for other people. — GreekSkeptic

Plus, I stated that I indeed have found something that feels real in the same way my pain feels real.
(My definition of real is somewhat "unfinished and complicated" since I don't really know but I have an idea. I argued that pain is the primary standard of truth because it is the only thing that feels honest and coherent.

It sounds as self-destructive maybe I don't know, but I chased this kind of feeling. I tried to find ways to bring myself to the ground when alone. I told myself how bad I am, how unworthy, how ridiculous...all these bad stuff you know. It felt true, constant and honest. — GreekSkeptic

It cannot be faked. For me, real means in a few words something that penetrates my numbness.)
Helping others. It's the only anchor I found that pass the illusion aka box of thought, test. It feels honest. It's not a mask I put.

People shouldn't bear the pain of themselves. People shouldn't endure the pain of their own existence — GreekSkeptic

And it's NOT that helping others fill the bucket...its that it feels real. That's what matters. Happiness tries to fill a bucket I don't have, which is why it feels fake. Helping others ignores the missing bucket and focuses on the world outside, which is why it feels "real.".

Jeremy Murray

Hi GreekSkeptic,

Sorry to hear of your existential suffering. I share that burden myself, and despite the gap in years between us, found myself relating to your descriptions of that suffering - which is, itself, telling about the universality of suffering.

I have extensive familiarity with counselling, both giving and receiving, and have found the right counsellor to be a wonderful assist. Meds too can play a role. In short-term situations, I have found the emotional 'boost' provided by anti-depressants to open a window of higher functionality, both of which can help a person fight through depression. And of course, this quote of yours, which others have highlighted, is considered one of the best approaches to depression (I'm going to use 'depression' as shorthand to describe your state, not as definitive).

Since I can't help myself, I'll help others. Now I would say for sure that that's something that keeps me here, and for the first time it does not feel superficial or illusionary - at least for now. Maybe that's the kind of hope I hoped for when I was younger. People shouldn't bear the pain of themselves. — GreekSkeptic

Helping others works. Sharing these feelings - as you are doing here, as you might in your philosophy society - helps. Writing, journalling, meditation. Experiencing a state of flow that puts you 'outside' of your thought.

I argued that pain is the primary standard of truth because it is the only thing that feels honest and coherent. — GreekSkeptic

I consider suffering to be the membership card for the human race, and this thought does bring me peace - not in an everyone else is bad off too sort of way, rather, in the Buddhist sense of it as a universal burden, with non-attachment the goal to overcoming this.

I also found a lot of peace in philosophy, even though I'm new to the field (again, apologies if my knowledge of say, Buddhism, is incomplete).

Sarte wrote that 'man is condemned to be free' and then joined the French resistance to fight the Nazis. I concluded after reading some Sarte and other existentialists that I had nothing but choice to bring meaning to my life. Having long-since affirmed my atheism due to the problem of evil, this idea started me on my path back from the void of despair.

I even found solace in some of the more extreme, negative philosophies. Ligotti's book on pessimism and anti-natalism covers a lot of suicidal-seeming philosophers. I no longer wish to end my own life. In reading of the struggles that others had, and the conclusions they had come to about the meaninglessness of life, Ligotti helped me with this. I do not recommend "The Conspiracy Against the Human Race" to many people, and I am not sure if it would help or hurt your mental state. But I personally felt less alone, and more comfortable choosing to live a 'meaningless' existence, after reading it. It is very dark, though.

To me, the only meaning is the choice we make, and that is enough for me to choose to keep on choosing.

You seem like you are walking the right path. Good luck to you, Greek Skeptic.

GreekSkeptic

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16291/this-year-i-realized-how-much-of-a-bad-person-i-am/p1

Corvus

Hope in a better life sounds like living doing nothing and expect things to get better. — GreekSkeptic

Hope in a better life means that you must set your own goals for the better life, and work hard for them. There is a meaning of life when making effort for the achievement.

ProtagoranSocratist

So, all this time, I keep asking myself "Why I won't kill myself tomorrow?". I discussed this with some people throughout the years. The answers I get were "I hope for a better life.", "I live to enjoy and be happy", "For hope.". Superficial. It all sounds superficial to me. Hope in a better life sounds like living doing nothing and expect things to get better. — GreekSkeptic

But how much better can you really do than "superficial"? There's depths to a surface, and surface to a depth.

I don't really know what to say about your conundrum, a lot of people would describe it as "depression", but I would feel better commenting if i could understand cause and effect better...I understand open forums aren't a good medium for being very specific. I understand that you feel heavy restraint from expectations, but you don't have to apply any standards to yourself despite what others will think about you.

I haven't found a single thing to "save" myself, but helping and uplifting others is a whole new world to me now. Being good for society is interesting. Since I can't help myself, I'll help others. — GreekSkeptic

Helping others can be nice, but nobody really needs to be "saved", it's somewhat incoherent to talk about saving yourself or others unless there's some sort of immediate threat to life.

Philosophim

Feeling unworthy of everything, feeling incapable, frustrated, confused, trapped inside a reality I thought I was not built for. So, what one might describe as pain, came early. — GreekSkeptic

Ah, its ok. You're just detaching from the expectation of others. When you are a child adults are attempting to guide you to 'success' from their viewpoint. They want you to fit into society and find respect from other people. They want you to pursue your goals and contribute to society. Sometimes adults show you what they personally value, then push you to master it to see if you value it too.

When you base your life on the expectations of others then stop, it can be a little jarring. Its like breaking a habit. You have finally grown in maturity enough to realize, "Oh, they prepared me the best they knew how so I could be empowered in my own life to make my own decisions". Of course, if you've never had any personal goals, wishes or desires besides fulfilling other's goals, you have nothing to pursue.

This is most people. Very few of us have real goals or desires in life once basic living is achieved. It is the rare and special person who finds such passions in life. There is nothing wrong with you if you do not have one. There is nothing wrong if you never obtain one. The goal of life is simply, "To exist". To experience the unique viewpoint of life that only you can have. Sometimes that results in something great happening for oneself or society. Most of the time its really the gift of existing.

What no one can teach you is what you value yourself. Right now it seems you value questioning the assumptions you have made in your life until now. That's fine. Keep doing so. Just make sure not to neglect your own health and wellbeing while doing so. Exercise, hold a job, and enjoy the experience of living itself wherever you can. Try new things if you are unsatisfied, and hold onto those things that content you.

Read about Kim Ung-yong, who holds the highest IQ on record of 210. Invited to work at Nasa at age 7, he became a University professor:

"As of 2007, he served as adjunct faculty at Chungbuk National University. On March 14, 2014, he became an associate professor at Shinhan University and vice president of the North Kyeong-gi Development Research Center.

In 2010, Kim denied the idea of being a "failed genius." "I'm trying to tell people that I'm happy the way I am. But why do people have to call my happiness a failure?" He added, "Some think that high IQ people can be omnipotent, but that's not true. Look at me, I don't have musical talent nor do I excel at sports. [...] Society shouldn't judge anyone with unilateral standards – everyone has different learning levels, hopes, talents and dreams and we should respect that"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ung-yong

So work on your own path in life. Keep questioning, keep seeking, and I hope you find enjoyment and fulfillment in life.

baker

Helping others. — GreekSkeptic

But are you really helping them?

Do they feel helped by you?

Did you ask them?

There is such a thing as pathological altruism:

/.../
Writing in The New York Times, Natalie Angier called the book a "scholarly yet surprisingly sprightly volume." She wrote,

pathological altruism is not limited to showcase acts of self-sacrifice... The book is the first comprehensive treatment of the idea that when ostensibly generous 'how can I help you?' behavior is taken to extremes, misapplied or stridently rhapsodized, it can become unhelpful, unproductive and even destructive. Selflessness gone awry may play a role in a broad variety of disorders, including anorexia and animal hoarding, women who put up with abusive partners and men who abide alcoholic ones. Because a certain degree of selfless behavior is essential to the smooth performance of any human group, selflessness run amok can crop up in political contexts. It fosters the exhilarating sensation of righteous indignation, the belief in the purity of your team and your cause and the perfidiousness of all competing teams and causes.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_Altruism

What do you think of my "will to live"?

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