Wayfarer

Pure experience is beyond the level of being and has no essence… It permeates the show without showing itself — Michel Bitbol
There is no world without consciousness, though consciousness is not a thing in the world — Michel Bitbol
Wayfarer
Janus
Wayfarer
On the other hand we can certainly imagine that material conditions were present prior to the advent of consciousness or least prior to consciousness as we understand it. All our scientific evidence points to that conclusion. — Janus
180 Proof
It means 'the map(maker) =/= territory' (i.e. epistemically ascribing has (a) referent(s) ontologically in excess of – anterior-posterior to – the subject ascribing, or episteme).The question isn’t “Did the world exist before consciousness?” but “What does it mean to assert existence independently of the conditions under which existence is ascribed at all?” — Wayfarer
Janus
Indeed it does, but outside that imaginative act what remains?
The point of Bitbol's line of criticism, is that both the subject and the objects of scientific analysis are reduced to abstractions in day-to-day thought. But these abstractions are then imbued with an ostensibly fundamental reality - the subject 'bracketed out' of the proceedings, the objective domain taken to be truly existent. But it should be acknowledged, the 'co-arising' of the subjective and objective is very much part of the phenomenological perspective. — Wayfarer
“What does it mean to assert existence independently of the conditions under which existence is ascribed at all?” — Wayfarer
It means 'the map(maker) =/= territory' (i.e. epistemically ascribing has (a) referent(s) ontologically in excess of – anterior-posterior to – the subject ascribing, or episteme). — 180 Proof
Wayfarer
disembodied ("immaterial") consciousness doesn't make any sense – is just wishful / magical thinking. — 180 Proof
Banno
Phenomenology begins from a simple but far-reaching insight: the reality of first-person consciousness is ineliminable, and any account of the world must ultimately be grounded in the structures of experience as they appear to the subject. — Wayfarer
Wayfarer
Hope Christmas was enjoyable. — Banno
Banno of course would point out that this is muddled, that we are inherently social beasties, and that our place in the world is not that of a homunculus siting inside a head looking out, but of a being already and always embedded in a world that includes others... and so on. — Banno
Banno
Here:...not really sure how that cuts against the quoted passage. — Wayfarer
It rests consciousness on the distinction between "inner" and "outer "- the homunculus arrises!Conscious experience is not a phenomenon among others. It is that in and to which the very distinction between “phenomenon” and “object,” “inner” and “outer,” first take shape. — Wayfarer
Tom Storm
bert1
Right, consciousness is determined by material conditions — Janus
Wayfarer
It rests consciousness on the distinction between "inner" and "outer "- the homunculus arrises! — Banno
Bitbol does not seem to delve as deeply into Being or the essence of experience, and he appears to recognize epistemic limits more explicitly. Do you think this is accurate, and what is the significance of this for philosophy? — Tom Storm
Janus
What evidence are you thinking of? — bert1
Do you mean the presence and not-presence of consciousness is determined by material conditions (a very strong claim), or that the type or content of consciousness is determined by material conditions (a different weaker claim). I think you probably mean the former. — bert1
Nothing in the OP, or anything I've said about it, suggests an 'immaterial consciousness', although the fact that it will always be so construed by yourself and Janus is philosophically signficant. — Wayfarer
Banno
I will. I don't see a misreading.I think you're misreading it, but I won't press the point. — Wayfarer
Yet consciousness is a response to the world in which it arrises.Bitbol considers consciousness to be “self-evidentially absolute”: the one domain of existence that is given fully and indubitably whenever it is present. — Wayfarer
bert1
We know of no consciousness which is not accompanied by material conditions. — Janus
consciousness is determined by material conditions — Janus
It is arguable, in fact it seems unarguably true, that the type or content of consciousness is determined by the material conditions it is conscious of. — Janus
Wayfarer
Bitbol moves backwards to Descartes. — Banno
This idea has an obvious ancestry in Descartes’ cogito ergo sum, (‘I think therefore I am’) although phenomenology breaks with the Cartesian substance model of mind. Husserl retains the insight that the existence of consciousness is indubitable in the moment of its appearance, but without positing a thinking thing (res cogitans). Bitbol adopts this Husserlian reading rather than the outright dualism of Descartes.
Bitbol opens his essay with one of the most disarming lines in the philosophy of mind: sensation is “not a something, but not a nothing either”. This deliberate paradox, borrowed from Wittgenstein, is not a rhetorical flourish but the key to Bitbol’s approach. On the one hand, consciousness cannot be treated as an object — something manipulable, measurable, or existing independently of the subject. This is because objects are by definition other to us, and are given only through the sense-data profiles which, as we have seen, are open to correction by further experience.
But if consciousness is not a “something,” it is also not a “nothing.” It is neither a useful fiction, nor a byproduct of neural processes, nor a ghostly residue awaiting physical explanation.⁴ Instead, says Bitbol, it is the self-evidential medium within which all knowledge about objects, laws, and physical reality arise (here the convergence with Kant is manifest). Any attempt to treat consciousness as derivative — as some thing that “comes from” matter — therefore reverses the real order of dependence. — Wayfarer
Janus
That's likely true, but that's different from the existential claim: — bert1
bert1
Okay, but if we know of no consciousness which is not accompanied by material conditions, it follows that we cannot really have a grasp of the possibility, even though we can of course say it is logically not impossible. So, the question becomes 'What significance could such a vague possibility have". — Janus
Banno
there is no 'one correct view' being promulgated here — Wayfarer
Janus
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