In other words, condoning unfairness against men as natural is a sign of the oppression of women. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
I wonder if you've considered a related issue. As I see it, people are largely attached to gender and racial identity. Many women (including my wife) take a certain pleasure in being non-male. It's part of their identity. I think it's the same with race. So on the one hand we have this fantasy of the individual without gender and color and on the other hand we have identities constructed in terms of positive stereotypes. — 0af
But, according to the aforementioned quote, men should be strong, men should sacrifice their bodies, men should be assertive, men can't be trusted with kids, a man should have a job and a woman should not have to support him, etc. are the result of our hate for women. In other words, condoning unfairness against men as natural is a sign of the oppression of women. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
I can think of plenty of examples where women's accomplishments are celebrated with no reference to their looks. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
I'll have to respectfully disagree for the simple fact that it is so omnipresent that a certain tolerance is requirement to function in society. It's in everything; why do we dress the way we dress? Why do we have make up, botox, facelifts, breast implants? Plus, why not adhere to all these gender stereotypes when it works for a significant part of society (beautiful women, rich white men, powerful athletes, popular movie stars, etc. etc.)? You cannot expect people to wage that uphill battle all the time. — Benkei
I suppose the difference is between asserting one's identity freely and having it imposed by society through subtle and not so subtle expectations and (moral) norms. Only when we're capable of letting go of harmful expectations can a person be free to have their own identity.
It does make me wonder if and to what extent many people would then feel lost? Do we need some level of gender stereotyping to socially function? — Benkei
Many times I have heard it said that MRA's, including female MRA's, are misogynists. I have seen/heard words and actions that left me almost convinced that feminism--at least at this point in its evolution--has nothing to do with women or equality and is purely an ideology through which people are seeking power by any means, including lying, demonizing their opponents, deluding themselves, etc. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
But this is already an oversimplification, because there are some obvious ways in which men have it statistically "worse" than women, such as in rates of incarceration, suicide, homelessness, etc.It seems pretty obvious white men in Western countries have had it very comfortable for quite some time historically speaking
I don't agree with how she worded it but if I interpret it charitably I suppose her point is that it all boils down to gender stereotpying (instead of mysogyny) and that's a result of juxtaposing men and women. So when I say "women should be [x]" its corollary "men should be [y]" is probably implicit and vice versa. (Don't cry cuz you're a guy --> I'm a girl so I can cry).
If she didn't mean that, I'll have to disagree with her conclusion. — Benkei
I highly doubt you "see" the actual person that she is and would be motivated by a number of other reasons to make it worth your while to get to know her as a friend. — TimeLine
However, using an extremely small portion of radical feminists as an example of women's rights is not really correct of you, now is it... — TimeLine
I think a discussion about men' rights or masculinity studies is certainly something that should be brought to attention. — TimeLine
Well if I were to speculate, based on my own prejudices, I would say that this result is due to the notion that women are 'the weaker sex'. Now it is arguable whether weakness is something one necessarily dislikes - do you want to argue it? When weakness provokes aid, it becomes an advantage, and I dare say that there are other advantages to being identified as inferior, like not being seen as a threat in strange neighbourhoods. But it doesn't seem like the greatest example of misandry. — unenlightened
And you think that being confronted by the police; members of the public not noticing or caring that you are being assaulted; etc. are not good examples with respect to men?! — WISDOMfromPO-MO
You miss my point, I fear. I do not deny that your examples are the result of gender stereotyping, nor do I deny that they operate in these cases to the advantage of women. My claim is that they stem from exactly the same stereotypes that in the vast majority of cases operate to the advantage of men; the same prejudices that women are not worth hearing out in a discussion, operate to suggest that they are not worth arresting, and need our help in a domestic.
Excuse the graphic parody, but it is as though in the good old days, you were to justify women not having the vote on the grounds that men don't get doors held open for them. The conception of women as weak, irrational, and the opposite of all the manly virtues sometimes works to their advantage, but this does not turn misogyny into misandry. — unenlightened
I do not see how stereotypes are relevant. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Suppose we as a society think that black people are inferior to white to the extent that we treat them as property. — unenlightened
I don't think it was a race thing at all, but a class thing. But ask a time traveller.Did the Romans have a more complicated view of their slaves because they served as tutors and teachers as well as ditch diggers? — Bitter Crank
In order to love or hate a group or type, whether it's gender, class, race, or whatever, you first have to stereotype them... — unenlightened
Mysogyny is contempt for women as you say, it is stereotyping them as inferior and then treating them as inferior... — unenlightened
you seem to have a difficulty in grasping this,... — unenlightened
so let's try the ideas out on race for comparison.
Suppose we as a society think that black people are inferior to white to the extent that we treat them as property. They cannot vote, or make decisions about their lives or jobs, or appeal to the justice system. You get the picture.
Now I say to you, "they are so lucky these black people, they do not have to worry about losing their jobs, or what the government is going to do, they do not have to fight for their country, and my friends and I do not hate our slaves, we love them. And yet a clinical psychologist told me that black people are socialised to hate whites."... — unenlightened
However, the humanity of feminists does not seem to ever be questioned--not even by anti-feminists--no matter what they do. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Every feminist source I encounter is oblivious to men suffering as men. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
The stereotype that seems to dominate is that males are morally inferior.
What could be more negative than saying that a class of humans is worse than everybody not in their class simply due to the way they were born? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Every feminist source I encounter is oblivious to men suffering as men. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
But it has never been the kind of dominant, mainstream narrative that feminism has been. It has struggled for relevance. Considering the attitude in the quote at the start of this thread, are the latter and former any surprise? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Feminism is not oblivious to the suffering of men but concerns itself with the study of women. That is the point. — TimeLine
Call this misandry, but are you having some spat with your ex?To stop at calling feminism incoherent would be generous, it seems. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Call this misandry, but are you having some spat with your ex? — TimeLine
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