Steve's right here, and this is the biggest problem in debates on consciousness. Until the scientific/philosophical community can agree on some form of model for what consciousness actually is and what it does I don't see how any progress can be made in any of the other areas.

Please, name one thing about Consciousness that we understand. — SteveKlinko

It's what you're using to make an argument right now.

Real Mind has Consciousness. Fake Mind has no Consciousness. But if we could give Consciousness to a Machine then it would not be a Fake Mind anymore, because Consciousness is the key. — SteveKlinko

What is a mind if not consciousness? To say that one has a mind is to say that it has consciousness.

Awareness that you have recognized a face is the difference. Even when the IBM Watson won Jeopardy it never knew it won. It could never enjoy that it won. Think about that. What is that difference? That is the answer. — SteveKlinko

So its aware of the face, but not aware that it is aware of the face? All we are doing is turning awareness back on itself creating a feedback loop. We can design a computer to be aware of it being aware. All that is required that we make its awareness another object to be aware of.

Please, name one thing about Consciousness that we understand. — SteveKlinko
It's what you're using to make an argument right now. — John Days

We are aware that we make arguments but do we understand anything about what that thing is that makes arguments?

Real Mind has Consciousness. Fake Mind has no Consciousness. But if we could give Consciousness to a Machine then it would not be a Fake Mind anymore, because Consciousness is the key. — SteveKlinkoWhat is a mind if not consciousness? To say that one has a mind is to say that it has consciousness

Awareness that you have recognized a face is the difference. Even when the IBM Watson won Jeopardy it never knew it won. It could never enjoy that it won. Think about that. What is that difference? That is the answer. — SteveKlinkoSo its aware of the face, but not aware that it is aware of the face? All we are doing is turning awareness back on itself creating a feedback loop. We can design a computer to be aware of it being aware. All that is required that we make its awareness another object to be aware of. — Harry Hindu

No a computer can detect a face and still not be aware. There's no infinite regression of levels of awareness going on here.

Detecting a face is being aware of the face. You are only aware of something that you detect.

There is an infinite regression of awareness. We are aware of being aware of being aware of being aware, etc. It is no different than a video camera looking back at its output, creating an infinite feedback loop. Computer programs can be designed with a recursive loop. Again, we simply need to make awareness an object to be aware of.

A computer does not detect a face and certainly cannot be aware of one. A computer can only process on/off. It is the programmer (a human) that gives meaning to these on/off bits (a face?), and it is a human that gives awareness to any thing the computers spits out. Ultimately a computer is and always be equivalent to a very fast abacus.

Anyone who believes that a computer is anything more than a bunch of on/light switches had been watching way too much TV and should stop immediately.

We are aware that we make arguments but do we understand anything about what that thing is that makes arguments? — SteveKlinko

I think we can. We understand that sometimes that thing can be rational, and sometimes it can be irrational. We understand that there are levels to it, (e.g. sub-conscious). We understand that it is something that wants to be further understood. We understand that it has desires of all different kinds.

We understand that there can be only two possibilities for where it comes from (i.e. designed or random chance). We understand that when the body dies, consciousness does not remain in the body. And, we understand that there is more to understand about it.

Maybe I'm just not understanding your point? Can you be more specific about what you mean?

Ultimately a computer is and always be equivalent to a very fast abacus. — Rich

Hi Rich. Wouldn't that be true for human consciousness, as well? If there really is no intelligence or creator behind it, then the human brain is also just a very fast abacus; a machine, (or perhaps that would be true even if there is a creator behind it).

We can study the mind from the time it's just a little clump of cells in the womb. We can study it right down to little electrical impulses zipping around from neuron to neuron and all the various bits and pieces of the brain; what they do (roughly) and how they interact with one another.

We can study behavioral patterns, psychology, desires, and come to some fairly consistent conclusions that apply to all humans (e.g. greed, fear, pride and love, joy, peace). But no matter how deeply we look, there's always a feeling that we're only scratching the surface. Probably one of the most amazing psychological phenomena of modern day science is the idea that the more complex we discover reality to be, the less need we see for any intelligence behind its existence. The complexity itself becomes an explanation for the complexity.

Maybe it is this awkward contradiction that prevents us from understanding AI. As brilliant and advanced as we are, as hard-working, motivated, and determined as we can be, we cannot create AI, while at the same time we believe our own consciousness to be the result of a series of atoms randomly bumping into one another. We cannot purposely recreate what supposedly happened by accident.

If there really is an intelligence behind the existence of consciousness, then it is no wonder that we cannot recreate consciousness while also disregarding that intelligence. It would be like trying to turn on a light bulb while disregarding the existence of electricity.

Wouldn't that be true for human consciousness, as well? — John Days

One can only stop for a moment and behold in the amazement of one's own mind, that cannot only create tools such as lawnmowers, grills, and computers, but can create, observe, and feel all that there is. Through endless and continuous learning and creative evolution, the mind still is able to continue on with yet more and more with no end. We, all who participate, are amazing.

There is nothing amazing about computers. There is endless amazement of the humans who create it and the programs that drive it.

We are aware that we make arguments but do we understand anything about what that thing is that makes arguments? — SteveKlinko
I think we can. We understand that sometimes that thing can be rational, and sometimes it can be irrational. We understand that there are levels to it, (e.g. sub-conscious). We understand that it is something that wants to be further understood. We understand that it has desires of all different kinds.

We understand that there can be only two possibilities for where it comes from (i.e. designed or random chance). We understand that when the body dies, consciousness does not remain in the body. And, we understand that there is more to understand about it.

Maybe I'm just not understanding your point? Can you be more specific about what you mean? — John Days

But what is the thing that is rational and irrational? What is the thing that wants and has desires? You have only stated things about Consciousness that we already know. We can describe effects of Consciousness but we don't know what it is.

↪SteveKlinko A computer does not detect a face and certainly cannot be aware of one. A computer can only process on/off. It is the programmer (a human) that gives meaning to these on/off bits (a face?), and it is a human that gives awareness to any thing the computers spits out. Ultimately a computer is and always be equivalent to a very fast abacus.

Anyone who believes that a computer is anything more than a bunch of on/light switches had been watching way too much TV and should stop immediately — Rich

Exactly!

Please, name one thing about Consciousness that we understand. — SteveKlinko

You have only stated things about Consciousness that we already know. — SteveKlinko

I believe it is in the study of these things we know about consciousness which will help us to know what consciousness is, and it may even be self-defeating to constantly ask "what is consciousness" while the qualities of consciousness are listed. Maybe you are looking for an answer which is too simplistic, or you are stuck on the idea that consciousness cannot be defined no matter how much we explore how it manifests in practical, day-to-day life.

It's like you asking, "what is a pencil" and I say, "it's made of wood, with a lead core, shaped like a cylinder to be held in the hand and is used to make marks of various kinds on paper" and you respond with, "yeah, but what is that thing that draws on the paper?"

What about if we designed a robot that could act scared when it saw a snake? Purely mechanical of course. Part of the fear response would be the hydraulic pump responsible for oiling the joints speeds up, and that higher conduction velocity wires are brought into play to facilitate faster reaction times. This control system is regulated through feedback loops wired into the head of the robot. When the snake is spotted the control paths in the head of the robot suddenly reroute power away from non-essential compartments such as recharging the batteries and into the peripheral sense receptors. Artificial pupils dilate to increase information through sight, and so on.
This robot has been programmed with a few phrases that let the programmer know what is happening in the circuits, "batteries low" that sought of thing. In the case of the snake it reads all these reactions and gives the feedback "I'm scared."

Is is really scared?

Before you answer, and as you probably know, a long long time ago they did live vivisections on dogs and other animals because they did not believe they actually felt pain. The pain response- all that yelping and carrying on, was nothing more than a set of reflexes programmed into the animals, the scientists and theolgists argued. Only humans, designed in God's image actually felt pain as we know it.

I believe it is in the study of these things we know about consciousness which will help us to know what consciousness is, and it may even be self-defeating to constantly ask "what is consciousness" while the qualities of consciousness are listed. Maybe you are looking for an answer which is too simplistic, or you are stuck on the idea that consciousness cannot be defined no matter how much we explore how it manifests in practical, day-to-day life.

It's like you asking, "what is a pencil" and I say, "it's made of wood, with a lead core, shaped like a cylinder to be held in the hand and is used to make marks of various kinds on paper" and you respond with, "yeah, but what is that thing that draws on the paper?" — John Days

If you could dissect the experience of Red like you just did with the pencil I would agree. Fact is we cant even understand the wood of Consciousness. Forget understanding the Lead. Your analogy is way off target.

What about if we designed a robot that could act scared when it saw a snake? Purely mechanical of course. Part of the fear response would be the hydraulic pump responsible for oiling the joints speeds up, and that higher conduction velocity wires are brought into play to facilitate faster reaction times. This control system is regulated through feedback loops wired into the head of the robot. When the snake is spotted the control paths in the head of the robot suddenly reroute power away from non-essential compartments such as recharging the batteries and into the peripheral sense receptors. Artificial pupils dilate to increase information through sight, and so on.
This robot has been programmed with a few phrases that let the programmer know what is happening in the circuits, "batteries low" that sought of thing. In the case of the snake it reads all these reactions and gives the feedback "I'm scared."

Is is really scared?

Before you answer, and as you probably know, a long long time ago they did live vivisections on dogs and other animals because they did not believe they actually felt pain. The pain response- all that yelping and carrying on, was nothing more than a set of reflexes programmed into the animals, the scientists and theolgists argued. Only humans, designed in God's image actually felt pain as we know — MikeL

The Robot would not experience Fear unless we could give it Consciousness and then it would be an Android. All those Robot responses mean nothing. Fear is a Conscious experience.

Fact is we cant even understand the wood of Consciousness. — SteveKlinko

That's not a fact at all. And it would probably be better not to speak on behalf of all humanity in this area. You can't understand the wood of it. I think I've got a pretty good start on what consciousness is and I've given several examples of that, whereas you keep going back to, "No, we can't!".

Forget understanding the Lead. — SteveKlinko

But, why should I forget understanding the lead? Because you can't understand the wood? That doesn't make sense. Why should I let your unwillingness to understand also stop me from understanding?

Fact is we cant even understand the wood of Consciousness. — SteveKlinko
That's not a fact at all. And it would probably be better not to speak on behalf of all humanity in this area. You can't understand the wood of it. I think I've got a pretty good start on what consciousness is and I've given several examples of that, whereas you keep going back to, "No, we can't!".

Forget understanding the Lead. — SteveKlinko
But, why should I forget understanding the lead? Because you can't understand the wood? That doesn't make sense. Why should I let your unwillingness to understand also stop me from understanding? — John Days

What is the Red in your Conscious experience of Red? Is it made out of Matter? Is it made out of Energy? Is it made out of some aspect of Space? Seems to me it is something that is outside of known Science. Do you think you know what it is? I'm listening...

What is the Red in your Conscious experience of Red? — SteveKlinko

It's a color.

Is it made out of Matter? Is it made out of Energy? — SteveKlinko

As part of the spectrum of light, it can have both properties of matter and energy.

Seems to me it is something that is outside of known Science. — SteveKlinko

Nah, just google it, "What is light".

That we've agreed to call this particular spectrum of light "red" is an aspect of consciousness which seeks to define what it is and then label it for easy recognition among billions of other consciousnesses around the world.

What is the Red in your Conscious experience of Red? — SteveKlinko
It's a color.

Is it made out of Matter? Is it made out of Energy? — SteveKlinko
As part of the spectrum of light, it can have both properties of matter and energy.

Seems to me it is something that is outside of known Science. — SteveKlinko
Nah, just google it, "What is light".

That we've agreed to call this particular spectrum of light "red" is an aspect of consciousness which seeks to define what it is and then label it for easy recognition among billions of other consciousnesses around the world. — John Days

You're talking about Physical Light which is Electromagnetic Energy. I'm talking about the Light that we experience which is Conscious Light. We don't experience Physical Light but rather we experience Conscious Light. The Light you see in Dreams is Conscious Light. The Light you see when you rub your eyes is Conscious Light. The Light you see in After Images is Conscious Light. There's no Physical Light involved in any of those things. This Conscious Light is not correlated with any Physical Light.

The Light you see when awake and your eyes are open is still Conscious Light. Your Brain converts the Physical Light into Conscious Light. In this case the Conscious Light is correlated with the incoming Physical Light. But the Conscious Light is different from the Physical Light. You always only see the Conscious Light. You never have actually seen Physical Light. I want to know what the Conscious Light is.