Perhaps, but that's not the same as abuse or harassment. — Michael
Both just customers. — Michael
If the person of power, makes unwanted sexual advances on a subordinate, that is the very definition of sexual harassment/ and or abuse. What am I missing in what you are saying? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
That is an equal playing field and you were able to freely chose how to react without fear of losing your job. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
I've never understood this. What's the difference between being attracted to someone because of their power and being attracted to someone because of their looks, talent, or sense of humour? — Michael
Obviously there's a difference if there isn't actually any attraction and the interest is just in exploiting the power the other person has, but that doesn't seem to be what happened in this case (unless she's lying). — Michael
We were talking about Clinton's relationship with Lewinsky. From what she's said, it wasn't unwanted. So unless there's something else I'm missing, it was neither harassment nor abuse (although certainly inappropriate, and infidelity on Clinton's part). — Michael
Huh? I was just referring to being sexually harassed. I'm not sure what "being on an equal playing field" has to do with it. — Michael
! Exactly! How many times have I not said this...Now it might be in a particular case, that there is simply a mutual attraction across the power imbalance - totally innocent - but in such cases, true love will wait until circumstances permit; change your doctor before you have sex with her, change your boss before you have sex with him. Shimples. — unenlightened
Sure, but how can it be stopped? The problem is that I think this kind of social interaction cannot be stopped. When I was in school in 12th grade I had a female teacher who slapped my butt playfully on the hallway when she passed by me and then smiled. What can you do when such a thing happens? Clearly nothing, because the other person has authority - all you can do is try to avoid them, and extricate yourself from situations where they can use that power in ways that you can control even less.We are talking of the abuse of power to coerce: 'give me a massage and I'll make you a star'. It's an indecent proposal, and it doesn't become decent if it is accepted. Nor does it become decent if it is proposed by the other side: 'make me a star and I'll give you a massage'. — unenlightened
Now it might be in a particular case, that there is simply a mutual attraction across the power imbalance - totally innocent - but in such cases, true love will wait until circumstances permit; change your doctor before you have sex with her, change your boss before you have sex with him. Shimples. — unenlightened
Sure, but how can it be stopped? The problem is that I think this kind of social interaction cannot be stopped. When I was in school in 12th grade I had a female teacher who slapped my butt playfully on the hallway when she passed by me and then smiled. What can you do when such a thing happens? Clearly nothing, because the other person has authority - all you can do is try to avoid them, and extricate yourself from situations where they can use that power in ways that you can control even less.
I've been in many situations where there were imbalances of power, and there really can't be done anything to stop them. — Agustino
Steve Jobs wife (Laurene Powell Jobs) was a student when she met him doing her MBA and Steve Jobs was a big time CEO giving a speech. Here's the story. Steve Jobs asked her to dinner, and she said yes.What if one is a hairdresser and the other is a princess (or one a student and the other a prince)? — Michael
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that so long as the use of power isn't involved. — Agustino
You tell me. You're the one arguing that there's something improper about power imbalances in relationships. — Michael
What is your point? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Yes, but I see this as hypocritical many times, precisely because the result is allowed to retroactively justify the activity that got it there. It would be like raping a girl and then marrying her and having a great happy marriage because whatever culture you live in forces you to marry once you have sex. I can imagine such a situation where even the girl ends up feeling happy with how things worked out :s - but I don't think that would make the rape justified. I think it's still just as wrong.But it is as you've recognized. It's kind of paradoxical though. These sorts of situations tend to be retroactively justified. So, a professor who ends up in a happy loving marriage with a student he asked out has his approach somehow justified by the result. "He did nothing wrong. Look how happy they are together!" Whereas the one who horrifies the student with the inappropriate come on doesn't and may lose his job. "The creep!" — Baden
Well there's a difference here. I view Trump as a positive element in the overall political picture, precisely because he unmasks the pretensions that the President is some sort of saint, or that we, as a society, are moral. Because we're not. I like to think of Trump as a little puppet - he's doing what the media, etc. have shown him is the cool thing to do. And that's exactly what he said - "it's locker room talk, all men do it". Clinton didn't - he pretended it wasn't a frequent occurrence, that there was no social problem behind it, that it was an isolated case.(Note that we've gone several pages of posts with no-one mentioning the fact that the President is an admitted sexual harasser of women, a disgusting predator who sees them as pussies to be grabbed. Clinton is in the same ball park in my view but not much in play right now. Trump is and so should be front and center. Wonder why he isn't? ) — Baden
Okay sure, but the rape could be interpreted as retroactively justified, even though it's harmful, the same way the power differential which compels one to act as the other desires can be interpreted retroactively to be beneficial and normal, instead of harmful and a form of bullying.I don't accept it's a fair analogy Rape in never consensual by definition. It's not impossible though that a student would fall in love with her professor and he with her and the relationship be consensual. The relationship may be corrupted by the power differential of course, and there is hypocrisy. That's what I was pointing to. — Baden
No it can't, that's precisely the point. But people may try to justify it in that manner, the same way they try to justify abuses of power. Neither of them can be justified retroactively.Nope, rape can never be justified retroactively or not. Asking a student out and raping someone are two entirely different categories of moral transgression. — Baden
I clearly said that the two cases play a different political role. Bill's case suggested there's something wrong with the President, but not with us the people. Trump's case, quite to the contrary, suggests that not only is there something wrong with the President, there's also something wrong with us. That plays an entirely different role.
Now you could accuse Trump of playing his role too well - he learned it from the media and Hollywood - the only difference is that he does it in the open and does not pretend to be ashamed of it, while Hollywood does it behind closed doors and pretends that it's wrong to do it. Now that hypocrisy is a greater problem than Trump. — Agustino
No it can't, that's precisely the point. But people may try to justify it in that manner, the same way they try to justify abuses of power. Neither of them can be justified retroactively. — Agustino
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.