Right, but when you're say the President, you can't really expect that your employee is going to report you - you pretty much control the power structure she could report you to, or at least you have greater leverage over it than she does. Even in the student-teacher case, a student can't really report the teacher to the Principal, because the teacher has greater leverage and authority with the Principal than the student - things could potentially turn out badly for the student that way. — Agustino
Yes, but not around non-Western Eastern European countries lol. Here it's harder for the student to accuse the teacher, even with good reason. I suppose in some Western countries it's easier since it seems to be easier there for a woman to accuse falsely a man of rape, or for a student to accuse a teacher falsely, etc. - the pendulum has swung too far the other way.There is a difficult balance to strike anyway, because given the chance, a student might use the power of threatened accusation - such things happen too. — unenlightened
I suppose so, but then this is more of a way of limiting the damage that a bad person can cause instead of preventing it.As long as we can avoid 25 years of repeated abuse, we are making things a bit better, no? — unenlightened
I suppose so, but then this is more of a way of limiting the damage that a bad person can cause instead of preventing it. — Agustino
How do you know, have you already spoken to Him? :DIf that's your aim, you need to petition God, who will turn you down. — unenlightened
Americans are tribal — Baden
Oh my... this is a typical case of projection, where one side dreams that the other side has what they lack. I think neither of them have "class consciousness". Why would you say that some have class consciousness and others don't? Working class person isn't aware that they are working class and therefore are under different conditions than the capitalists?
And how can "class consciousness" help prevent abuses? — Agustino
IF you want to be safe from the undesired advance, then something more than responsive court systems will be needed: What is needed are very strong employee class conscious unions that can collectively resist arbitrary and capricious actions of management. I don't know how much you will have to pitch overboard to take on strong class conscious unions, but if you want social change... — Bitter Crank
Capeesh? — Bitter Crank
As long as we can avoid 25 years of repeated abuse, we are making things a bit better, no? — unenlightened
That's why we have to attack the root cause, which isn't power and desire, but rather that which puts those desires in our mind in the first place — Agustino
Yes, biology does play a role, but it is only aided by culture that it can produce such desires. Why do you attribute a sufficient role to biology alone to produce such effects of conflict and rivalry, and hence sin and immorality? — Agustino
Like, think about yourself. The first memories I have of my sexual desire aren't of some biological kind but rather I remember hearing around, in music, etc. that real grown up men have sex with women, so then I started to desire it. That's how I actually got to having that desire. Then over time I started to see that men who had sex with more women were admired more than those who didn't, so then I started to desire that too, because I thought that's what it takes to be a real man. I didn't learn all that myself now, that's what society taught me. I suppose that if I was left alone with no such messages, I would have had to wait until I actually fell in love or was biologically attracted to a woman and figure things out for myself from there on. But that's not how it happened. I was taught that these women are hot, these women are not hot, etc. — Agustino
If you look at Franz de Waal's work on chimpanzees, for example, you'll see how closely chimp politics resembles our own. You seem to think you can reprogram human behaviour from the top down and somehow distill out desires that have a natural basis. You can't. You can only repress them. — Baden
Because we are primates, and that's the way primates act. — Baden
Knowing this about me, would you ever expect me to on depend on a "responsive court system" to make myself "safe from undesired advances"? Do you think I would attempt to organize or join a "union" to keep myself safe and have the Union fight my battle? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
and also stop saying it's acceptable or that women like it really. — unenlightened
Well, obviously the origin of all sexual desire is in biology. No one would deny that. But you seem to deny that these primary desires can be inflamed, increased and redirected by many factors, the most important being society and culture for human beings (other animals too). So the sexual desire you encounter in society is by no means the biological desire for sex - that biological desire has been so manipulated and twisted that it is not even recognizable anymore. That's why I say that 99% of human sexual desire is not biological. That is for example why what excites us and sexually stimulates our desires changes - in one epoch one standard of dressing is perceived as hot and provocative and in another a different standard. So clearly when you see that "hot girl" it's not just a biological desire that is at play, but overwhelmingly it is a desire that is socially mediated and created - you've been taught that that type of girl is hot, that her way of dressing is hot and attractive, and that you should pursue her because you'll have higher status if you have her than if you don't, that she'd make a good mate - not in the English sense of mate :D . You'll also imagine how other men would find her hot and attractive and would want to be with her, which further fuels your desire for her.That would be biology. — Baden
Dominance hierarchies tend to arise in all animal species where imitation is at the basis of their society. Human beings are a lot more imitative than chimps, so that's also why we have bigger and more complex dominance hierarchies than chimps do. Without a dominance hierarchy - which really is nothing but prohibition - an imitative society would erupt in violence, which would propagate itself and bring that society and all its members to an end. So dominance hierarchies aren't primary - they are secondary to the imitative nature of desire in animals like chimps, or humans. Without the stabilization of dominance hierarchies which act as a means of stopping the spread of imitative violence and conflict, such societies would not survive. The problem though is that dominance hirearchies no longer work in human societies, and nothing can be done about that - we need a new way to prevent violence, or we will go extinct.Dominance hierarchies are natural in primates like us (and many other species) and the main reason to be on the top is access to mates (for males at least) — Baden
Oh? Then what are we doing in advertising and marketing if not inflaming already existent and basic human desires, re-directing them, and so on so forth? :s What are we doing in psychotherapy, psychoanalysis, moral philosophy, etc. if not trying to change our structure of desire?You seem to think you can reprogram human behaviour from the top down and somehow distill out desires that have a natural basis. You can't. — Baden
Just like chimps have developed their basic dominance hierarchies and structures to prevent the outbreak of violence given their limited mimetic abilities, man has done the same. Just as in chimp communities there exist forms of behaviour, prohibitions and ritual which prevent the outbreak of imitative violence, so also there exist even more complex mechanisms in human societies to mediate this. If anything, chimps form an in-between the more imitative human and the other less imitative animals. For example, when a dominance hierarchy is established in certain species of monkeys, the male who has been "beaten" by his rival puts himself in a position of homosexual availability towards the alpha monkey. Why? Because the alpha monkey isn't only a rival, it is also a model - the inferior monkey wants to be like the alpha, it is fascinated by the alpha. And this ritual of submissions prevents the outbreak of violence by re-directing the desire of the loser from the sexual object (the female) to his model (the rival). One reason why all sexual rivalry is homosexual in its structure.If you look at Franz de Waal's work on chimpanzees, for example, you'll see how closely chimp politics resembles our own. — Baden
That is true, but to suppose that human beings are primates in the same sense that chimps are is folly. Our capacity for imitation is a lot greater, which means the potential for greater conflict, and the need for more complex social and cultural structures to mediate that. Sexual desire isn't entirely biological in primates either by the way - just that dominance hierarchies and other cultural and social elements that they have play a lesser role in determining their sexual behaviour.Because we are primates, and that's the way primates act. Culture can only mould the clay its given. — Baden
I didn't ask for your 14-year-old self-understanding of your desires here. We already know that the process of desire formation happens largely unconsciously, behind the scenes. It requires analysis to be disentangled and understood. I asked you to reflect back on your experience and think if there weren't other factors that you could identify that were responsible for your sexual desire and the way it was directed. For example, why were you attracted to particular girls, and not to others? When you wanted to have sex with a girl and you saw one other guy or more guys wanting the same thing, how did you react? What did you feel and why? When you saw a girl that many guys liked, did you find yourself also liking her?I hit puberty and then I wanted to get as much sex as possible. And I don't think its much more complicated for most teenage boys than that (Hollywood or no). — Baden
Your liberal society is not liberal at all, but illiberal. When rivalry is allowed to run amok, nobody can enjoy the object of desire - everyone is busy killing each other off, outplaying each other, competing, etc. - we all become fascinated with the rival, and the rival is more punishing than any law would be. At least the law is impersonal and applies equally to all - it doesn't torment us, it doesn't outrage us. Just because there is choice does not mean that there is freedom. The two shouldn't be confused.Agustino seems to think that a liberal society itself is the problem. — Baden
bailiwick
— unenlightened
:-O I never heard of this word. — Agustino
I was never assaulted in a workplace and I was never sexually harassed by a superior in a workplace.Sharing that you were sexually harassed or assaulted in the workplace is part of the solution but the other half is to try to make sure that no one else is put into that situation again, with this same harasser.
Thoughts? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Yeah, it's possible he was, but the extent to which that went on for is unknown. And there was quite a lot of conflict it seems between Krishnamurti and Rajagopal, not to mention that Rajagopal's wife wasn't having sexual relations with him anymore. It may be that far from being Krishnamurti's initiative, it could just as well have been Rosalind's in her (and her husband's) attempt to control K. No doubt that K was also guilty, but it's hard to place the blame squarely on him since we don't know the situation very well. Obviously though, it does tarnish his reputation and makes his statements and philosophy suspicious.Kristnamurti was doing his best bud's wife, whom also claims that he routinely humiliated, and emasculated, and kind of thought she was his reincarnated mother too. — Wosret
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