Meh, OK maybe I did just loose care, enjoy infallible logic and your firmly grounded beliefs.

It's not a given! — Another

What i meant was it’s not deductively reasoned. I inductively arrive at it because it makes the best sense of my experience. If you can prove as you are trying to that I’m internally inconsistent thought, you would disprove me, yes.

You say I'm lucky? And u suspect I probably don't really care. — Another

I was trying to be funny. You didn’t find it that way. I apologize. I was trying to lighten things. You seem very intent on discussing my underlying assumptions on God. I wasn’t expecting that in this thread. If needs I’ll draw up a better defense.

Meh, OK maybe I did just loose care, enjoy infallible logic and your firmly grounded beliefs. — Another

I am actually so glad you said this! I don’t think either of us really want to get into it. I respect your views and your reasons for believing what you do.

I did posit a brief defense of God and Monism — MysticMonist

You wrote.
"I really would agree with you. God is the source of all goodness, meaning, and true joy. If God doesn’t exist there is no unified source of meaning and the only thing we have is philosophy which is our collective and individual search to find or create meaning. If nihilism is right and this philosophy is pointless, giving up is also pointless and I say it’s better to dream and hope than to dispair."

Philosophy doesn't give u a definitive answer so you think that justifies believing in a dream and something that seldom offers continuity.

I am actually so glad you said this! I don’t think either of us really want to get into it. I respect your views and your reasons for believing what you do. — MysticMonist

I entered into this discussion in hope of seeing this from a view I have not heard before and one that made more sense than what I have already used in rationalisation.
Unfortunately I have not found this.
And sure you have your beliefs if you did not want them questioned why would you engage in discussion about them.

If you can prove as you are trying to that I’m internally inconsistent thought, you would disprove me, yes. — MysticMonist

I did not set out to disprove you however in your endeavor to explain your reasoning you contradicted yourself on numerous occasions and this is not of any assistance to my cause however I do feel that pointing them out to you would be beneficial to you because it seems evident you don't see the contradiction.

Philosophy doesn't give u a definitive answer so you think that justifies believing in a dream and something that seldom offers continuity. — Another

My theology doesn’t give me a definite answer either. Such is the nature of God. God doesn’t fit in neatly defined, deductive boxes. I can’t prove him or define him or rationally explain him. This means I also can’t convert others by reason or by argument.

So if you want spell out the contradicton, please do. The only response I’d be able to offer is why for me it’s not a contradiction. I suspect the problem is a faulty understanding of God (either yours or mine) and I will need to clarify the definition of God (who can’t be truly defined).

I entered into this discussion in hope of seeing this from a view I have not heard before and one that made more sense than what I have already used in rationalisation.
Unfortunately I have not found this.
And sure you have your beliefs if you did not want them questioned why would you engage in discussion about them. — Another

MysticMonist doesn't need me to defend him, so this is me confronting your arrogance and rigidity for my own satisfaction. He's a gracious guy and refuses to get drawn into uncivil confrontations. First off - I have found MM's insights really helpful, both in terms of framing what I believe and helping me understand what other people are trying to express. He and I see things differently on a lot of things, but there is overlap on a lot. Another lesson, which I think is consistent with his view of monism - We're all talking about the same thing - whatever you call it - God, spirit, whatever.

Also, I look back over this thread and it seems like he is addressing your comments and questions directly and with the intention to be responsive.

Sorry MM, I hope you aren't offended with me butting in.

My theology doesn’t give me a definite answer either. Such is the nature of God. God doesn’t fit in neatly defined, deductive boxes. I can’t prove him or define him or rationally explain him. This means I also can’t convert others by reason or by argument. — MysticMonist

I think your whole discussion with Another is a good example of what I have said before - I am bothered by atheists unwillingness to accept personal experience as evidence for god. I couldn't have asked for a better example.

It’s okay. Thanks for your support Clark.

I’m not a religious theist. I’d really like to develop some sort of middle way between atheism and theism. 99% of atheists are not nihilistic, unchecked hedonistists. I would also say of us theists that actually we don’t know what God is and have all kinds of wrong ideas about Him/Her/They/it. That what happens when a finite mind attempts to grasp an infinite reality. I’m still trying to wrestle with how to do this. My latest attempt is that “God” is an objective truth and source of meaning that is subjectively experienced.
God is even experienced by atheists and they perceive aspects of God correctly, they aren’t wrong.

The atheists may think this is silly. They may be offended that I’m puttimg words or beliefs in their mouths that they don’t say or believe. I’m sensitive to that and it’s what I’m still working on.

But it comes down to this: there will always be theists, you can’t wish us away. There will always be atheists, we can’t and shouldn’t wish you away. So would the atheists rather have a world where the people of faith acknowledge everyone’s personal dignity and validity of their subjective experience of God
Or do they want a world where people of faith think atheists are going to hell and try to convert them because any means possible (if they are compassionate) or disregard their value as human beings all together (if they are not compassionate)?

In my mind, my philosophic enemy isn’t the atheist, who I’d like to ally with, but our common enemy the exclusivist religious who think they have a monopoly on God and would condemn us both to hell if they had the chance. Maybe I just want to free God :)

In my mind, my philosophic enemy isn’t the atheist, who I’d like to ally with, but our common enemy the exclusivist religious who think they have a monopoly on God and would condemn us both to hell if they had the chance. — MysticMonist

To be fair, I've never met a Christian who wants to condemn me to hell. They just think that's where I'm going if I don't see the light. For them, it's a matter of fact. I guess if you believe that, you might have no choice to preach to the non-believer.

Im glad you raised this, it’s timely. I’ve been considering writing an open letter to evangelical Christians. You’re right that most believers wouldn’t tell us to our faces we’re going to hell. Nor would they believe that we would, just that we might and wouldn’t want to dwell on it further. It’s more an abstract notion than applied in particular to real persons. I would say this is because hell is against common intuition. God reveals himself thru intuition therefore no hell. It’s not the strongest argument but in conjunction with the others makes a strong case.

The real problem I have with Christian and Islamic hell is the chilling effect has within and without the faith. That will be the real focus of my letter, the monopolizing of God

You’re right that most believers wouldn’t tell us to our faces we’re going to hell. Nor would they believe that we would, just that we might and wouldn’t want to dwell on it further. It’s more an abstract notion than applied in particular to real persons — MysticMonist

You misunderstood my point. There are lots of Christians who think I am definitely going to hell. Some have said so. To them, they're just stating fact. They don't want me to, I just am as long as I don't believe.

You and I are making Pascal's wager.

The real problem I have with Christian and Islamic hell is the chilling effect has within and without the faith. That will be the real focus of my letter, the monopolizing of God — MysticMonist

Whom will you send it to? I think it will be an exercise in self-expression for you. It's unlikely you will get an open-minded hearing. You probably don't expect one. I hope you'll post it here.

In my experience, Christians get really nervous (in person rather than online) about talking to me about salvation and hell. But that’s because I’m well versed in theology and scriptures at least enough to be dangerous. As you’ve pointed out before, I’ve given a lot of thought about it. I usually find I’ve thought out the questions of salvation way more than an evangelist. So I really don’t have people saying to me “you are going to hell” but rather “you’re searching, you’ll find it”. This gives the implied assumption that other non-believers aren’t genuinely searching. That’s just wrong.

This gives the implied assumption that other non-believers aren’t genuinely searching. That’s just wrong. — MysticMonist

My main point is that I've never seen any mean-spiritedness in the Christians I've come in contact with.

Only peripherally related, one of my favorite stories. I was at an informal party that my son's girlfriend invited me to. Maybe 15 people sitting around a table. I was sitting next to my son, a 17-year old girl, and a man. I liked the girl very much. She was very outgoing and intelligent. Not shy about expressing her opinion. Also Jewish. She was telling about a trip to the South she had taken where a Christian woman she met had told her, in a very friendly way, that she was going to hell. She wasn't upset, but I think it really opened her eyes.

Then she described a visit she made to a Catholic church with a friend. When they called people forward for communion, not knowing better, she went forward. She thought it was for a snack. When she got to the front, she didn't like the wafer, so she tried to put it back. I spent the next 15 minutes explaining to her, my son, and the man that the wafer is considered the body of Christ, not symbolically, but in actuality. They kept trying to work around it and talked about representing, symbolism, emotions, and I kept saying over and over again - no, it's the actual body of Christ. They never did get it through their heads.

It can be hard to enter the religious understanding, world view, and imagination of others. To me, it's just like quantum mechanics - it doesn't matter why, it's just the way things are.

Okay, that’s probably true about not being mean spirited.
I forgot who said it, maybe Huxley, but so many ex-churched mystics treat Christanity like an ex at a cocktail party. We will say all nice things about Buddhism, Hinduism, even Islam but we have an axe to grind against Christanity. It’s completly natural, but it’s still unfair to Christians. That’s why I’m wanting to write a letter/essay to bury the hatchet. Of course I’ll post it here too. My main audience is going to be some Christian forums. I don’t know if I really am looking for an apology or a clarification on their views or what. We’ll see how it goes. If I get any interesting responses I’ll share them too.

I love that explaining communion story. I think that’s the biggest reaction I get from Christians is those blank stares. Since I’ll start from a Christian point and then jump in and out of other faiths and philosophies. It requires not being locked into one world view, most people aren’t that mentally flexible.

"confronting your arrogance and rigidity"

Wow OK I hope sincerely hope you found satisfaction in your response, like all of us I to find arrogance a meal hard to stomach and appreciate you pointing it out, I don't see that I was being completely arrogant however you are probably correct in implying that I should take a step back.

I personally don't identify as a atheist, I not unlike yourselves have taken from life experiences that there is undoubtedly extreme powers and meaning in this world that I don't understand and I'm not sure I ever will as a mortal.
Because I can't clearly define my beliefs I don't profess them, In turn I find it frustrating when someone expects me to accept and understand theirs in reasoning.
I find it frustrating when some expects me to acknowledge their beliefs as fact but refuses to acknowledge my questioning the fact.

This being said maybe it's me that should refrain from engaging in these conversations.

I don't perceive that either of you mean any harm by your sharing and I hope you understand the same from me. I do get carried away at times.

Thank you both for the your thoughts.

I find it frustrating when some expects me to acknowledge their beliefs as fact but refuses to acknowledge my questioning the fact.

This being said maybe it's me that should refrain from engaging in these conversations.

I don't perceive that either of you mean any harm by your sharing and I hope you understand the same from me. I do get carried away at times. — Another

I think you have misunderstood what MysticMonist was trying to get across. I thought your response was insulting and disrespectful.

On the other hand, you shouldn't overreact, e.g. "maybe it's me that should refrain from engaging in these conversations." I've read and enjoyed some of your other posts. You have something to contribute. I'm sure you've noticed that some posters like to be sarcastic, insulting, and contemptuous of other's ideas and sometimes the others themselves. I must admit when I first came on the forum I was guilty of some of that myself. Then I had a couple of responses like the one I sent you and it changed my mind about how I should act here. It has even changed the way I act in the real world.

Also, it's fun to lay into people sometimes. I like to think I have a natural talent for talking trash. There are so many deserving targets here. I actually miss it now that I have reached perfection.

I thought your response was insulting and disrespectful. — T Clark

I can see that now and I am remorseful so please accept my apology.

I know my thoughts are extremely fallible and I am on this forum to learn not to teach, I need to remember that when I become emotional.
I hope my indiscretions don't stop you from engaging me in future.
Sincerely sorry.

I’d really like to develop some sort of middle way between atheism and theism. — MysticMonist

there will always be theists — MysticMonist

There will always be atheists — MysticMonist

In my mind, my philosophic enemy isn’t the atheist, who I’d like to ally with, but our common enemy the exclusivist religious who think they have a monopoly on God and would condemn us both to hell if they had the chance. Maybe I just want to free God :) — MysticMonist

This is familiar territory to me, a decades long internal debate, not resolved to my satisfaction. There is no 'ultimate' resolution to some questions, this side of the grave.

One avenue to approach the problem--works for me anyway--is to invert the order of creation: We created God, to whom we attributed our own creation, and whom we worship. We called God (gods) into existence. This (emphatically) isn't going to work for everybody, of course.

But it allows one to keep the scriptures, the faith, the cult, the congregation. Religion is OUR work, and what we have created in religion is useful to billions of people. The word of the prophets is as truthful as would be as when we believe that God was present before the beginning (or is as useless, depending). After all, we have not, do not, will not, can not know ANY ultimate truths of God -- if there are any. We are finite mortal creatures made of flesh, and doomed to die. God (as we have defined) is immortal, invincible, all knowing, everywhere present -- all attributes that really are beyond our ken.

Heaven and Hell are but pieces of the unknown and unknowable. Stating that God is beyond our knowing, and then saying all kinds of things about God as if they were facts clearly involves a rather big contradiction. God is unknowable, but here is what I KNOW about God -- yada, yada, yada.

Sincerely sorry. — Another

No harm done.

I’ve had simmilar thoughts that all of religions are just mankind’s attempts to describe God that are initiated by intelligent, wise and pious men rather than handed down by God(s) or Angels. I also think along the same lines with my modified Pascal’s wager. If God doesn’t exist, then there is still value in a spiritual search to find or create meaning.

I reached out to a conservative Christian forum, we’ll see how that goes. Wish me luck. But the church I’d like to see is devoted to the search for truth but respects and acknowledges the divine wisdom held by others. Actually, in theory, the Catholic Church does this. They say in several of their statements that Divine wisdom is found in other faiths and even by principled atheists. They do say the Catholic Church is the best and surest way to salvation. Of course you think your path is the best or you wouldn’t be in that tradition, but I would like the church to embrace Universalism. I don’t think they are worried about what one heretic thinks. But who knows.

I don’t think they are worried about what one heretic thinks. But who knows. — MysticMonist

I don't think you're a heretic. I think you are either an apostate or an infidel.

You’re right I’m an apostate. But only to christanity.
Judiasm, Islam*, Bahai, Buddhism, Hinduism are all cool with me and vice versa. That suggests that maybe it’s not my beliefs that are the problem :)

*my relationship with Islam is complicated. I converted to Islam by accident. I love the Quran. Apparently to be Muslim all you have to say is the statement of faith “there is no God but God, and Muhammad is His messenger”. I was asked if I believed that I did and I said it and they said you’re Muslim now. Wait a min?! But I ran with it for a like a week, wasn’t really my thing. So am I still Muslim? I think so, I’m not sure. I almost became Baha’i though and the Muslims hate the Baha’i. They call me a friend of the faith. So there’s that. It’s complicated.

Oh dear, complex history. On which stake would you prefer to be burnt?

*my relationship with Islam is complicated. I converted to Islam by accident. I love the Quran. Apparently to be Muslim all you have to say is the statement of faith “there is no God but God, and Muhammad is His messenger”. I was asked if I believed that I did and I said it and they said you’re Muslim now. Wait a min?! But I ran with it for a like a week, wasn’t really my thing. So am I still Muslim? I think so, I’m not sure. I almost became Baha’i though and the Muslims hate the Baha’i. They call me a friend of the faith. So there’s that. It’s complicated. — MysticMonist

You are an interesting person. Maybe not a friend of the faith but a friend of faith.

Something I've wondered - Is Baha'i related to Judaism? I've only met a few, and they've all been ethnically Jewish.

If hell exists as a place and God is omnipresent he exists in hell. If hell is not a place, but a state of being, God is the source of all being, God exists in hell.
God suffers in hell, not just cause it’s hell but because God is infinitely good and loves everyone in hell and suffers to see them suffer. God is infinite, so God suffers infinitely.
Humans are finite and suffer finitely.
Human suffering is insignificant compared to God’s suffering.
Therefore, hell exists to make God suffer infinitely and forever.
This cannot be, so eternal hell doesn’t exist. — MysticMonist

I was thinking about something else, and this just popped into my head.

I've heard estimates that there have been about 100 billion people born since homo sapiens began about 200,000 years ago. If you believe that only Christians (or Muslims, or whatever) can go to heaven, that means that hell must have about 90 billion souls in it. I bet it's loud down there.

Geez - I wonder how far back into Homo history souls became standard equipment. Maybe it's more than 90 billion.

Something I've wondered - Is Baha'i related to Judaism? I've only met a few, and they've all been ethnically Jewish. — T Clark

No. They grew out of Shi’a Islam in Persia/Iran in 1800s with the teachings of their prophets the Bab and Bahá’u’llá. They are a really small religion and are persecuted by Muslims as heretics. They are very friendly and multicultural following.
Key beliefs are that most religions are true and their their prophets are “divine manifestations” which doesn’t mean incarnations of God but “perfect mirrors” of God. They think humanity should be united in one world government. They are very influenced by the Sufi mystics. Cool folks.

The concept of heaven and hell has always been such an illogical concept. Heaven sounds great, but how great could something possibly be for all eternity?