Your position on this is quite obvious so allow me to ask, do you recognize the problem that the statement calls our attention to and if so, is there a logical process that can be considered to improve the problem that you perceive? — Myttenar
So it follows that these problems then are illogical problems? — Myttenar
Logic applies to propositions - statements of fact. It doesn't address applying human values, identifying problems and goals, deciding the appropriate method to achieve goals, and determining when those goals have been met. Applying, identifying, deciding, and determining are human acts. — T Clark
I would disagree to this statement on the grounds that one can logically identify a problem for example. We can logically deduce if goals are met. We use our personal/perspective logic to set goals. — Myttenar
I can't find it right now, but I read a column a few months ago that said the opposite: it is the highly-educated elites who keep everything running. Without the highly-educated elites, I recall the author saying, the farmers, postal carriers, and the rest of us non-elites would be helpless. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
What no side of this discussion tells me is why anybody wants to put their own role in the system on a pedestal. The common worker often sounds as elitist as the paper shuffling CEO ("Without the work that I do, the whole system would implode"). — WISDOMfromPO-MO
People mostly care about power, influence, prestige, status, wealth, etc. Pragmatic considerations, — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Apparently people can't be happy with being good at something and being fairly compensated for it. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Take for example a man attempting to fix an electric pump.
Logic is the reason he is fixing it, first of all from the proposition of "does it work" with an observation being made and conclusion derived that it is not, logic is used to make the decision to fix it, the man has realised in a logical process of deduction that the pump doesnt work (identifying a problem) and since it doesn't work logically moves to the solution of fixing it (setting a goal) and logically determines how to fix it (determining method) and identify when the problem is fixed(determine when a goal has been met).
Logical reasoning at every step. — Myttenar
It would be, except that I don't think most people are so obsessed. Most people seem like they are just trying to get through the day, their life, without too much misery.
Some, a small minority, really are obsessed with power, influence, prestige, status, wealth, etc. and they are a troublesome lot. — Bitter Crank
since deductions are made in the process, logic has been used. I'm not sure where the problem in understanding that is, I assumed it was common knowledge . — Myttenar
Kind of ethnocentric of me. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
people do not seek work that they are good at. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
People seek careers in professions with very high salaries, high status/prestige, and/or above average power--never mind how good they would be at the work. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
An intelligent human, to me, is one who is able to use his/her mind and come up with an original thought, regardless of whether the whole world would disagree with that thought ... i.e. not one whose mind uses him/her, not one who blindly plays out a script that everybody else in the world is following. — Aurora
But philosophical materialism and its favorite offspring, determinism, are increasingly telling us--and increasingly being accepted for saying--that how we use our minds, along with the accompanying content of those minds, is entirely effects of causes that we have no control over. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
I'm not saying that people fail. Customers, workers, managers and shareholders all get what they want, and the whole enterprise is considered a success. The whole economy is considered a success. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
We should be careful, though, not to make the world so fine and good that you and I can't enjoy living in it. A world in which there is no sexual harassment at all is a world in which there will not be any flirtation. A world without thieves at all will not have entrepreneurs. (Laughter.) A government in which there are no friendly connections or favors between politicians and powerful people would be the first in the history of mankind. (Laughter.) And a world without fiction, my friends, would be unbearable for all of us. — Garrison Keilor
Well, I don't have reams of data at my finger tips, either. But... Logic tells us, does it not, that if customers, workers, managers, and shareholders are all getting what they want, then the system has to be working. Customers want affordable and decent-quality goods; workers want reasonable labor loads and adequate pay managers want production to go smoothly and profitably; and shareholders want dividends and their assets to hold value.
If everyone in the economy is fucking up, fucking each other over, fucking off, and constantly lying, cheating, and stealing then no one is going to be satisfied: not the consumer, not the worker, not the manager, not the stockholder.
Most people are getting what they want. The economic system is big enough and complicated enough to allow for a certain low level of continuous failure. 35,000 people die in traffic accidents, true. But out of 320 million americans covering hundreds of billions miles a year on the roads, that is a low failure rate. Sure, there is waste, fraud, and abuse in every organization--whether it be the Cancer Society, Apple Computer, Exxon, or the Arkansas legislature. But, if the level of waste, fraud, and abuse is low and tolerable, we can live with it.
It takes an extremely efficient and vicious police state to eliminate all waste and fraud. I'd rather have some waste, fraud. and abuse and NO police state. As the recently disgraced Garrison Keillor said at the National Press Club a while back: — Bitter Crank
it doesn't mean that we have no control over our minds. And, I didn't need to research philosophy to know that. It just requires being conscious ... stepping back and seeing that you're not your mind. — Aurora
The materialists and determinists will probably tell you that that "stepping back and seeing that you're not your mind" is an illusion.
And they will probably say that empirical science shows that it is an illusion. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Churchill — Cuthbert
Soft drink makers — WISDOMfromPO-MO
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