The person has to have a cognitive capacity to be able to consent. So you could have a
circumstance where a person might give free and voluntary consent but if they don't have the cognitive capacity to properly consent then it wouldn't be consent within the meaning of the law. Now a classic example of that might be someone who has an intellectual disability. A person who is intellectually impaired might very well say, "Yes, I'm prepared to engage in sexual intercourse," but lack the cognitive capacity to understand what they are doing…Under our Criminal Code, in relation to consent, the law provides that consent means consent freely and voluntarily given by a person with the cognitive capacity to give the consent. Cognitive capacity in that context means that at the time that the offence is alleged to have occurred, the complainant had sufficient understanding to know what was occurring in order to be able to give consent to it.
Yes. I would set the boundary at 16 or 14. I think there is a lot of oppression by parents and society of young people in that age group, 14-18. And that's because young people are very dangerous to society. I think people should be allowed to drink and smoke from 14 for example.Is it time we revised our traditional 18-years boundary between childhood and adulthood? — TheMadFool
It's not that they are maturing faster. They've always matured faster, society just didn't acknowledge it. For example, my thinking at 14 wasn't much different than my thinking today. Sure, it was more raw and stuff, I had different opinions, etc. but fundamentally I'm as developed as I was back then in terms of pure, raw intelligence.So, I wouldn't be wrong in saying children are maturing faster nowadays. Some under-18s even have their own business ventures and outdoing even more experienced adults. — TheMadFool
No.Is it right to restrict the autonomy of a mentally mature human being? — TheMadFool
I think I've seen several guys in their late teens or early 20s dating 14-16 year old girls over my life. So... I don't think that should count as rape if the girl consents and is okay with it. The law should be modified to take into account the fact that people above 14 can generally pretty much make decisions for themselves. In some countries, the laws already allow for this. I think in the UK one can give their consent with regards to sex if they are 16, or something similar. Can't remember for sure.They are still legally a minor until they are 18, but afford a certainly flexibility so that should they consent to sexual intercourse at, say, aged 17 with a 20 year old who may possibly be convicted of statutory rape, can be assessed as having the capacity to make that decision. — TimeLine
I think I've seen several guys in their late teens or early 20s dating 14-16 year old girls over my life. So... I don't think that should count as rape if the girl consents and is okay with it. — Agustino
Okay, but let's leave that to the side and discuss what the law ought to be, not what it is.It depends on the laws of your country, but one could be charged with statutory rape - such as if the parents of the girl make a case of it - and in the case of a minor, consent is not a defense for sexual crimes. — TimeLine
I think that 14-year-olds really do have sufficient cognitive capacity to consent to things. They're clearly capable to follow instructions at school, to make decisions about how to answer questions on tests, how to study, how to manage their free time, whether to play football, etc.Hence, why I initiated the discussion of cognitive capacity and not consent, to ascertain whether there is a free agreement there or whether it is merely acquiescence — TimeLine
I think they should be allowed if they seek this themselves. If they can pursue a sexual relationship that seems to tell us that their intellectual disabilities are not so severe that they don't understand what they're doing.comparatively, can those with intellectual disabilities be allowed to pursue a sexual relationship? — TimeLine
How is this demonstrably shown? Lawyers have lots of tips and tricks to "demonstrate" things which are actually never really demonstrated. And most people aren't very careful with their language unless they are trained philosophers, lawyers themselves, etc. It's relatively easy for a smart lawyer to get an uneducated person whom they're prosecuting to agree to whatever they want them to agree if they're smart. It's not so easy to capture or corner a philosopher on the other hand, who is one of the most slippery of creatures.she demonstrably lacked the capacity to understand the consequential aspects to sexual intercourse — TimeLine
That may be true, but I think it's speculative. Maybe it should be illegal for someone to pursue a relationship with a mentally disabled person, but not the other way around, for the mentally disabled to pursue a sexual relationship with others.consent was not a real or true consent because she was not mentally capable of giving her consent — TimeLine
How is this demonstrably shown? Lawyers have lots of tips and tricks to "demonstrate" things which are actually never really demonstrated. And most people aren't very careful with their language unless they are trained philosophers, lawyers themselves, etc. — Agustino
I think that 14-year-olds really do have sufficient cognitive capacity to consent to things. — Agustino
If they can pursue a sexual relationship that seems to tell us that their intellectual disabilities are not so severe that they don't understand what they're doing. — Agustino
The first quote that you quote me as saying refers to what lawyers can demonstrate with regards to mentally disabled people. We don't know much about mentally disabled people, but we certainly know that their handle over language isn't that great.How can you demonstrate that they can? — TimeLine
Their actions demonstrate it. I mean they solve quadratic equations at 14. Most people in history haven't been able to solve quadratic equations even at 40. These are clearly people who can follow a line of reasoning, understand consequences, and do things. They do it all the time at school, with their friends, etc. It's so obvious actually that I think it's ridiculous to think they lack cognitive capacity.How can you demonstrate that they can? — TimeLine
I think I've seen several guys in their late teens or early 20s dating 14-16 year old girls over my life. So... I don't think that should count as rape if the girl consents and is okay with it. The law should be modified to take into account the fact that people above 14 can generally pretty much make decisions for themselves. In some countries, the laws already allow for this. I think in the UK one can give their consent with regards to sex if they are 16, or something similar. Can't remember for sure. — Agustino
The first quote that you quote me as saying refers to what lawyers can demonstrate with regards to mentally disabled people. We don't know much about mentally disabled people, but we certainly know that their handle over language isn't that great. — Agustino
I am sorry but at age 14 even though I had the cognitive capacity to understand what sex involved, there is NO way that I could have EVER understood the lifelong consequences.Think of yourself at 14. Do you honestly say that you lacked the cognitive capacity to understand what sex involved and the consequences? — Agustino
What do you mean "immature"?I was sexually immature well into 21-22 — Benkei
Well, if you were mature at all those things, I really really can't see what you mean by the fact that you were immature when it came to sex, apart from things like you were laughing when you heard the word penis or something of that nature.I was mature in finances and could function without support from my parents when I was 17 (eating healthy, cooking myself, cleaning, work, study, locking doors etc.) — Benkei
I didn't say that people ought to have sex at that age, I just said that they should be allowed to decide on it.At the same time, research in the Netherlands showed that 75% of women who consented to sex between the ages of 16 and 18 still regret it afterwards (when asked in their mid twenties). — Benkei
Nobody is wise enough to consider all consequences. That's just a fact of life. People need to deal with it though. It's part of learning.Even though kids can make rational decisions (my 2.5 year old daughter manages at times!),that doesn't make children wise or capable enough to consider all the consequences. — Benkei
Right, so they need to be educated on those subjects too. But the right education involves both theory and practice.Children, including teenagers, are more susceptible to developing addictions as well, which is another reason not to meddle with ages of consent especially where it concerns drugs (alcohol and cigarettes included). — Benkei
I didn't say that people ought to have sex at that age, I just said that they should be allowed to decide on it. — Agustino
That's because you didn't direct your intelligence towards understanding it, not because you lacked the cognitive capacity to understand it.What I may be at 14 is irrelevant but honestly I had no clue at all about sex at that age, even though I was great at a number of intellectual pursuits that made me far more intelligent than people much older then me. — TimeLine
Nobody can really understand consequences though. When I started my business, you think I understood consequences of all that I was doing? No, I was clueless about so many things. I learned along the way, and there are still many things I'm clueless about. That's just the nature of the beast. Nobody, except very very few people, are wise. The challenge in life is to learn how to make do with the little that you do have in terms of knowledge and understanding.I am sorry but at age 14 even though I had the cognitive capacity to understand what sex involved, there is NO way that I could have EVER understood the lifelong consequences. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Well, it depends on who the 23-year-old man was, whether he obeyed what I told him and showed that he bought into my own ideal of having a large family, and wanted to marry my daughter, not just date her. I would also want him to be religious or otherwise convert to Christianity.So if I was your daughter at age 15 and you saw a 23 yr old man courting me, would you condone our relationship? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
That's because you didn't direct your intelligence towards understanding it, not because you lacked the cognitive capacity to understand it. — Agustino
What does being dependent on others (we're always dependent on others to some extent, btw) have to do with lacking cognitive capacity?I did lack the capacity at that moment in time because I was dependent on others and had very little understanding of consequences — TimeLine
Okay, I see.Nevertheless, I understand you and I agree; that is why I am telling you that I support the functional approach, which can determine whether the child understands the action and the consequences of that action. There is current talks as mentioned in the international arena on children' rights and that we should stop taking that 'they are a child and therefore don't know any better' paternalism because we fail them in someway as individuals. We should learn - though ambiguous - to adopt an approach that identifies their capacity rather than simply assume them to be incapable — TimeLine
Time for a small anecdote. When I was around 13 I saw two guys indecently touching a girl around the toilet, who was telling them to stop, so I shouted at them, and when they heard they all ran away, including the girl. Naturally, after that I had an interesting story to tell, which I told other people around the school, and soon the news spread. Suddenly one day the principal came in class and picked me out of there, and said "given your actions, I don't think you should really be in our school anymore" and he took me in a room alone with himself, questioning me on what I had done. Instinctively, I knew to be as vague as possible, and give as few clear answers as possible. So he got tired of interrogating and threatening me at one point, and brought the girl and the two guys in the room. That's when I first realised what this was all about. Then they started to say - all of them, even the girl (probably cause she was embarrassed) - that I started spreading false rumours about them through the school about this and that. So I was very angry at that point, but I instinctively understood that I had to lie to escape, since there was no possibility of convincing the principle that two guys actually tried to rape the girl in school, when even the girl wasn't admitting to it. I also knew I had my youth on my side, so if I only apologised and admitted to fabricating the whole thing, even if it was true, I would be let go of. So I said that I was very stupid, that I thought it would be a funny joke, that I'm dearly sorry and will never do a similar thing in my life, basically begging everyone to forgive me. My aim was to (1) not be expelled, and (2) avoid getting the principal to contact my parents. And I succeeded. If I had chosen a different strategy, my life would probably have been very different today. — Agustino
What does one have to do with the other? If you're independent you should go live in the forest all alone to prove it, or what? :s That seems more of an ego thing than anything realistic.That is to say, if kids are so mature and independent, why do they stay in their parents's basement into their 20s? — Hanover
Yes, I do notice that, but there's no necessity for it. Part of that, seems to me, to be due to the parents. The parents encourage the child to keep being a child, usually for far too long. They do that since they generally can provide for the child for longer. That means that they're not willing to let the child hold responsibilities, and treat him or her like a child. As a result of that, the child goes on to perceive him/herself as a child.My point is that extended childhoods are typical in advanced societies as are laws protecting children from sexual and economic abuses. — Hanover
Okay, but I view that as a problem. I think the child should start working as soon as possible. I don't really see any value in an extended childhood, but quite the contrary, you're delaying the time it takes someone to become an active participant in the world and its affairs. I don't understand why you'd want to do that.Child labor laws are a protection, not an impediment — Hanover
Yeah, but that's precisely the problem. I think children need to be given responsibility from early on, and the family should try to integrate them in whatever the family is doing. If the father is a doctor, for example, he should take the kids with him to hospital, and start teaching them the very basics while they watch him. One of the kids may show an interest in it, in which case the father can start preparing him to be a doctor. And so on.As you would expect, however, if children are going to extend their dependence economically, you will liklely see laws reflective of that reality that keep them to some extent disenfranchised. — Hanover
They are equipped, they're just not willing to use the equipment they have. If you have a university graduate, for example, sitting in his parents' basement and smoking weed all day with his friends while playing video games, you can't really tell me that you have someone who isn't equipped. They are amply equipped, it's just that they're not willing to apply their intelligence to a profession, or to making money, or something productive. That they are intelligent and capable is amply illustrated by the fact that they completed schooling and higher education in that case. What they lack is the adequate moral education and discipline, which parents did not give them because they always treated them like a child.In other words, I disagree with the OP that today's youth are earlier equipped for adulthood than yesterday's. — Hanover
The situation in the 21st century has changed dramatically. With an unprecedented access to information through media (magazines, books, tv and the interent) children of this generation are more informed than their predecessors and this trend is only going to increase.
So, I wouldn't be wrong in saying children are maturing faster nowadays. Some under-18s even have their own business ventures and outdoing even more experienced adults. — TheMadFool
This definition has to do with mental maturity - those who're less than 18 considered unable to think for themselves. This was fine because prior to the 21st century people under 18 were clearly immature and thus the restriction on their autonomy was justified. — TheMadFool
The situation in the 21st century has changed dramatically. With an unprecedented access to information through media (magazines, books, tv and the interent) children of this generation are more informed than their predecessors and this trend is only going to increase. — TheMadFool
So, I wouldn't be wrong in saying children are maturing faster nowadays. — TheMadFool
These laws that restrict decision-making rights to 18 are there to protect and I see nothing wrong with that, particularly in the case of contract law and sexual abuse or exploitation. — TimeLine
But, in my opinion, there can be another way of looking at it; by enabling a type of 'presumption of capacity' where instead of adopting the undermining paternalism that assumes automatically a minor is incapable of making decisions to instead see children as themselves having rights and responsibilities, to empower their capacity to exercise those rights. — TimeLine
And that's because young people are very dangerous to society. — Agustino
It's not that they are maturing faster. They've always matured faster, society just didn't acknowledge it. — Agustino
I disagree with the OP that kids mature faster now. A 12 year old in the 1800s probably had far more responsibility and lack of protection from the harsh realities of life than today's youth. More advanced societies require extended childhoods. — Hanover
This is a matter of legislated law, not child development. — Bitter Crank
Young children are vulnerable. — T Clark
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