I think you really do have problems in understanding the meaning of what you read. When you have a headache, do you think you have brain cancer? >:O

I think you have problems in understanding what you experience.

I think you really do have problems in understanding the meaning of what you read. — Agustino

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. — Harry Hindu

I think you have problems in understanding what you experience. — Harry Hindu

No, you listed to me a bunch of symptoms and shown ZERO understanding of how medicine actually works or what those words mean. Headaches are the primary symptom of brain cancer. Does having a headache mean that you have brain cancer? Probably not - and not just statistically, but also because brain cancer usually produces a SPECIFIC TYPE of headache, that is different from what you've likely experienced before as headaches. When you just regurgitate a list of symptoms, you miss all that.

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. — Harry Hindu

Yeah this is a case in point. You have no clue what "inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility" means. That means that the person starts swearing at you, cursing you, threatening you, being physically violent, etc. That's what a delusion actually looks like. But of course, you know none of that.

I'm not talking about headaches. I'm talking about delusions. There are a plethora of symptoms - most of which should be met to say that someone is delusional. A headache is only one symptom out of many that could indicate brain cancer or something else. You have to look at ALL the symptoms and perform tests to know what the root cause is. Going by one symptom doesn't get you to the cause. I didn't list one, I listed many, most of which you meet.

Read again. It says OFTEN, not always. Maybe you should check what you read?

Irritability synonyms: irascibility, testiness, touchiness, grumpiness, moodiness, grouchiness, (bad) mood, cantankerousness, curmudgeonliness, bad temper, short temper, ill humor, peevishness, crossness, fractiousness, pettishness, crabbiness, tetchiness, waspishness, prickliness, crankiness, orneriness

headache is only one symptom out of many that could indicate brain cancer or something else. — Harry Hindu

Most people who have brain cancer don't experience other symptoms prior to diagnosis.

I didn't list one, I listed many, most of which you meet. — Harry Hindu

No, you listed many, and failed to understand all of them. I don't meet probably any of those, I might meet a few, but definitely not all that you've bolded.

You have to look at ALL the symptoms and perform tests to know what the root cause is. Going by one symptom doesn't get you to the cause. — Harry Hindu

Yeah, you do have to look at ALL the symptoms, and in addition, you have to understand what they mean. Delusions are usually part of psychiatric disorders. Psychiatric disorders are manifestations which halt someone's ability to function in society, that's one key characteristic. So unless my "delusions" harm my ability to function in society, they can't be medically qualified as delusions.

Read again. It says OFTEN, not always. Maybe you should check what you read? — Harry Hindu

Yes I am perfectly aware it says often. So what? That's a red herring.

Yeah, you do have to look at ALL the symptoms, and in addition, you have to understand what they mean. Delusions are usually part of psychiatric disorders. Psychiatric disorders are manifestations which halt someone's ability to function in society, that's one key characteristic. So unless my "delusions" harm my ability to function in society, they can't be medically qualified as delusions. — Agustino

The delusions do not interfere with general logical reasoning (although within the delusional system the logic is perverted) and there is usually no general disturbance of behavior. If disturbed behavior does occur, it is directly related to the delusional beliefs.

In other words, you can behave normally, except when your delusion is questioned.

Most people with delusions have them as a means of coping with the stress of life and the knowledge of death and an unfair world.

Here's the symptoms of depression:

Persistent sad, anxious, or “empty” mood
Feelings of hopelessness, or pessimism
Irritability
Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, or helplessness
Loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities
Decreased energy or fatigue
Moving or talking more slowly
Feeling restless or having trouble sitting still
Difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions
Difficulty sleeping, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
Appetite and/or weight changes
Thoughts of death or suicide, or suicide attempts
Aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems without a clear physical cause and/or that do not ease even with treatment

Now someone may think they meet all of them, because they don't understand what they mean. Take the first one... If you feel sad every now and again, and get a little anxious when you go out of the house, etc. you may think you have a tick for that one. FALSE. The sadness, anxiety, and empty mood described there actually mean that you're so sad that you can't bring yourself to wash, you're so anxious you can't go out of the house anymore, etc.

In other words, you can behave normally, except when your delusion is questioned. Most people with delusions have them as a means of coping with the stress of life and the knowledge of death and an unfair world. — Harry Hindu

Those are not delusions in a medical sense.

Those are not delusions in a medical sense. — Agustino

I never made that distinction.

I never made that distinction. — Harry Hindu

Yes, that's the problem. You never made that distinction, but you gave me a list used to diagnose a medical condition. Is your claim that I suffer of the medical condition known as delusions? Yes or no?

Yes, that's the problem. You never made that distinction, but you gave me a list used to diagnose a medical condition. Is your claim that I suffer of the medical condition known as delusions? Yes or no? — Agustino

You suffer from delusions. You asked me to show you that you are delusional. I did.

You suffer from delusions. — Harry Hindu

I asked you for a yes or no answer. Are you incapable of following directions? I want a yes or no answer to the following question:

Is your claim that I suffer of the medical condition known as delusions? — Agustino

I asked you for a yes or no answer. Are you incapable of following directions? I want a yes or no answer — Agustino

I gave you an answer. It's not my problem if you don't like it.

I gave you an answer. It's not my problem if you don't like it. — Harry Hindu

No you haven't. You said I suffer of delusions. What does that mean? Do you mean the medical condition known as delusions? Yes or no?

Irritability synonyms: irascibility, testiness, touchiness, grumpiness, moodiness, grouchiness, (bad) mood, cantankerousness, curmudgeonliness, bad temper, short temper, ill humor, peevishness, crossness, fractiousness, pettishness, crabbiness, tetchiness, waspishness, prickliness, crankiness, orneriness — Harry Hindu

>:O - yes, quoting the dictionary certainly does make my point very well. You don't understand what ANY of those synonyms mean in the context of diagnosing a psychiatric condition.

No you haven't. You said I suffer of delusions. What does that mean? Do you mean the medical condition known as delusions? Yes or no? — Agustino

I mean that you hold beliefs that alleviate the stress of knowing you will die and cease to exist. In other words, you cover up reality with your nice beliefs in order to feel better about your finite existence.

- yes, quoting the dictionary certainly does make my point very well. You don't understand what ANY of those synonyms mean in the context of diagnosing a psychiatric condition. — Agustino

It seems that you don't know what any of those words mean in the context of THIS conversation.

I mean that you hold beliefs that alleviate the stress of knowing you will die and cease to exist. In other words, you cover up reality with your nice beliefs in order to feel better about your existence. — Harry Hindu

Good, so you don't mean delusions in a medical context, therefore the list of symptoms used to diagnose the psychiatric condition of delusions that you provided is worthless, and that's a fact.

Now let's discuss this new assertion of yours. So it seems to me that you want to say that I hold beliefs solely for the purpose of alleviating the fear of death. Correct?

There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him/her, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly. — Harry Hindu

Let's start with this one: Do you not accept your premise unquestioningly (that God, the afterlife, the supernatural, spirits, etc., exist) which then has an influence on how you interpret your experiences - that these experiences are "spiritual"?

Do you not accept your premise unquestioningly — Harry Hindu

No, not unquestioningly. It would be most productive if you answer my questions before anything else though. Please try to concentrate, it will facilitate having a discussion.

So it seems to me that you want to say that I hold beliefs solely for the purpose of alleviating the fear of death. Correct? — Agustino

So it seems to me that you want to say that I hold beliefs solely for the purpose of alleviating the fear of death. Correct? — Agustino

Not solely. You hold your beliefs for the purpose of alleviating the stress of knowing the world is a certain way that you don't like or agree with. Also, to make yourself feel more meaningful, more special, than your really are.

There are several types of delusions, which religion seems to overlap:

Again from Wikipedia:

Erotomanic type (erotomania): delusion that another person, often a prominent figure, is in love with the individual. The individual may breach the law as he/she tries to obsessively make contact with the desired person.
Grandiose type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity or believes themself to be a famous person, claiming the actual person is an impostor or an impersonator.
Jealous type: delusion that the individual's sexual partner is unfaithful when it is untrue. The patient may follow the partner, check text messages, emails, phone calls etc. in an attempt to find "evidence" of the infidelity.
Persecutory type: This delusion is a common subtype. It includes the belief that the person (or someone to whom the person is close) is being malevolently treated in some way. The patient may believe that he/she has been drugged, spied upon, harassed and so on and may seek "justice" by making police reports, taking court action or even acting violently.
Somatic type: delusions that the person has some physical defect or general medical condition
Mixed type: delusions with characteristics of more than one of the above types but with no one theme predominating.
Unspecified type: delusions that cannot be clearly determined or characterized in any of the categories in the specific types.

So religious beliefs would be a mixed type encompassing a degree of erotomanic (God loves me and is interested in my life), grandiose (I am a eternal spirit and the body is just a faulty copy of myself (imposter)), and maybe a bit of persecutory (War on Christmas when there is no war on Christmas).

In the Christian tradition, for example, prayer, worship, meditation and contemplation are means for the believer to get in closer communion with the Lord through His Son Jesus Christ. — Agustino

Yeah, so right now you're talking to an atheist so starting out like this is just begging the question to me. Let's not shall we?

Not solely. You hold your beliefs for the purpose of alleviating the stress of knowing the world is a certain way that you don't like or agree with. Also, to make yourself feel more meaningful, more special, than your really are. — Harry Hindu

If eternal hell exists and if you are someone who is likely to be in hell in the afterlife, would hell be something to be afraid of? Yes or no?

Erotomanic type (erotomania): delusion that another person, often a prominent figure, is in love with the individual. The individual may breach the law as he/she tries to obsessively make contact with the desired person. — Harry Hindu

This makes no reference to God. Clearly the delusion applies to actual human persons.

grandiose (I am a eternal spirit and the body is just a faulty copy of myself (imposter)) — Harry Hindu

Really?

delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity or believes themself to be a famous person, claiming the actual person is an impostor or an impersonator. — Harry Hindu

>:O doesn't sound like what you were quoting above.

Yeah, so right now you're talking to an atheist so starting out like this is just begging the question to me. Let's not shall we? — Benkei

Nope, not begging the question at all. I expressed something in Christian discourse, you want me to translate to atheist? It's just a question of translation. You cannot figure the meaning of those terms. Read the rest of what I wrote. You don't have to be a theist to meditate for example.

meaningless is really just semantics. I defined faith earlier in this thread as "the evidence of things unseen". When I say "remove faith" we are removing any evidence submitted for things unseen such as souls, God, miracles and transubstantiation. — Benkei

What about the meaning of words, aren't they things unseen? Or do you claim to have seen the body and blood of Christ? If you've taken part in the Eucharist, you have evidence that the items are body and blood of Christ, because you've seen them, and seen that this is what they are called. If you think that the words refer to something else, or that the items should be called something else, you are going on faith in something unseen.

If attempting to decipher the nature of reality, I rely upon my senses and reason and you rely upon the five books of Moses, surely you can see that we don't just have different foundational anchors, but they are of a significantly different type altogether. My point being that I am relying upon some fairly basic means of acquiring information, whereas you are relying upon some old book, and I therefore can say that we are not using faith in the same way. — Hanover

I don't see that we use "faith" in a different way. I would think that you have as much faith in modern books, like the stuff taught to you in schools, as you have in your senses, just like me. So for instance, you probably believe that things are made of molecules and atoms, though you don't sense them. And you probably believe things about the universe which you don't sense, and about historical things which you weren't there to sense. But I have very little faith. That's why I scour the books for consistency, reserving my faith for things which have been demonstrated to be deserving of faith. And, I believe that it is reasonable to have more faith in ancient books than modern books because they have stood the test of time, by demonstrating their consistency.

The thing about faith is that it is the means by which knowledge is passed from one person to the next without immediately testing that knowledge. If the knowledge turns out to be faulty, this will eventually be exposed, it will be dropped, and will not stand the test of time, like the geocentric universe. In relation to the vast amount of knowledge that was produced thousands of years ago, only a very small part has remained, the rest has been dropped because it wasn't really worthy of our faith in the first place. In relation to the vast amount of knowledge which is produced in the modern environment, we have no way of knowing which aspects will persist, and which will be dropped. Therefore the probability is much higher that the knowledge from ancient times is more deserving of our faith. Compare fragile ideas which have been in existence for two thousand years, with fragile ideas that were created yesterday. The person who created the ideas yesterday insist that they will be around for a long time into the future. Which do you think are more deserving of your faith?

It's clear that there are all sorts of religions worldwide with tremendous diversity among them, many thousands of years of old and many with hundreds of thousands and even millions upon millions of followers. Surely they can't all be right, which would indicate their being right has little to do with their success. — Hanover

The different religions have fundamental principles which are very similar, God, communion, good behaviour, etc., especially if you allow for the different social conditions within which they exist. And if they have similar fundamental principles, then your claim "surely they can't all be right" is unjustified. Atheists like to pick at accidental differences and say "see they're all different, they can' t all be right". But look at all the different people out there in the world. Would you say "see they're all different, they can't all be human beings"?

Which do you think are more deserving of your faith? — Metaphysician Undercover

The ones with a proven track record, obviously.

The different religions have fundamental principles which are very similar, God, communion, good behaviour, etc., especially if you allow for the different social conditions within which they exist. And if they have similar fundamental principles, then your claim "surely they can't all be right" is unjustified. Atheists like to pick at accidental differences and say "see they're all different, they can' t all be right". But look at all the different people out there in the world. Would you say "see they're all different, they can't all be human beings"? — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, I think this is about right. There are differences between religions, but there certainly is a shared mystical core in all of them.