• _db
    3.6k
    When we are discussing the existence of God, there are three main positions:

    Theist: I believe God exists.
    Atheist: I believe God does not exist.
    Agnostic: I neither believe God exists nor that God does not exist.

    This is just like any other normal ontological issue, such as the existence of universals, objective morality, other minds, etc.

    Unfortunately these terms are abused a lot, which obfuscates things. There are the colloquial terms "agnostic (a)theist" which, to my understanding, seek to describe a position in which a person is not totally sure if God does or does not exist but believes in (a)theism anyway. This is awfully frustrating because it 1.) begs the question and 2.) removes real agnosticism as a legitimate position.

    For most self-professed agnostic atheists, it is the theists who hold all the burden of proof. In the absence of evidence, it can be assumed God does not exist, or so the agnostic atheist claims. Usually this is accompanied by some pseudological "you can't prove a negative".

    Firstly, you can prove a negative and we do it all the time. If we mean logical proof, we need only show a logical error that invalidates something's existence, such as a married bachelor. If we mean through induction, we need depend on the same criteria of evidence that would be used for a positive claim. We might say, there is no elephant in the room, and then turn on the lights and say look! there's no elephant!

    It is question-begging to assume atheism is the "null" position as agnostic atheists are so inclined to believe, because it ignores the fact that we need to have a reason why atheism would be the null position, which would simply be an argument for atheism. This argument may simply be the acceptance of naturalism or physicalism. But oftentimes it is accompanied with positive skeptical arguments, such as the relativity of religion, or the evil in the world, or whatever.

    Ultimately then, there are no null-positions in philosophy. There are only more deeply-held beliefs. Atheists as much as theists need to provide reasons for why they believe what they believe. An argument for atheism is not that theism has failed to give good arguments, but that this failure constitutes a reason to reject theism because of some prior held commitment (such as naturalism or whatever).

    What interests me, though, is why people feel the need to "qualify" their (a)theism in this way. And I think it's because the question of God's existence is not simply an academic one but one that affects the very core of our worldviews. How we orient ourselves to the world is influenced by our perspective on God's existence. It's not like, say, the existence of a planet with purple oceans. How would the existence of such a planet really affect our ways of living?

    So I think people are "paralyzed" by agnosticism. They don't know how to live life as an agnostic. Agnostic atheists in my experience have often claimed that atheists and agnostics "live the same", in the sense that they live without a belief in God. The problem here is that if you live "as if" God does not exist, then you seem to have already made a commitment - atheism. In this case it seems that atheism must be a pragmatic position to hold - we don't have all day to think about God's existence.

    (On the pragmatic level, then, the question of God would seem to be more about the question of a certain kind of God: a loving, personal, immanent, miracle-worker. I think most agnostic atheists will say they not only lack belief in this God but also believe he does not exist. What they may still be unsure about is the clockwork, deistic God, or perhaps the more technical philosophical God. In that sense they may be agnostics.)

    Now the question I'm interested in is how the agnostic and atheist "lifestyle" are different. And I think a plausible answer (at least in part) is that we can separate the theoretical from the pragmatic/emotional. Theoretically I am an agnostic - I realize there are good arguments for, and serious objections to, both theism and atheism. But on the pragmatic/emotional level, I orient myself in life as though God does not exist. I don't expect miracles, I don't expect to go to the afterlife after I die, I don't pray or worship or any of that. All of this is consistent to what an atheist would (not) do.

    The crucial part of this, from my own self-analysis, is that although this pragmatic assumption that God does not exist may have some loose reasons backing it up, a lot of it strikingly has to do with feelings, values and desires. I don't like the idea of God being real! I don't like the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing entity that I cannot escape from! I like the world in which a God does not exist more than the world in which he does. I don't like organized religions and the influence they have on politics and psyches. I want to be free, independent, and self-sufficient.

    Yet it could also be said that perhaps morality is dependent on God's existence. An theoretical agnostic might feel compelled to believe in God for the sake of morality. Or due to Pascal's wager. I'll copy part of a summary of Levinas' Jewish thought that I wrote elsewhere:

    "Monotheistic alterity is the religious belief of the adult, but can only come at the risk of atheism. Ontology is atheism; negative theology is unacceptably positive. Religious ecstasy is a violence against human freedom, which is itself born from the breaking of the core of consciousness by the trace of the transcendent (Ileity). Devotion requires responsibility: social justice is the means in which humans attain redemption; it is a pre-eminently religious act."

    Levinas was Jewish, and (I think?) he was a theist, but not in the sense of there being a God within the totality but as alterity; we know of God only by his "trace", i.e. his absence shows his presence. Levinas' God does not fit the role in the traditional sense. He calls for an adult religion of responsible and independent thinking followers. This makes his form of theism difficult to differentiate from atheism in terms of "lifestyle".

    Thus I conclude that in many cases, "agnostic atheism" is actually just veiled anti-theism. It is hatred of God even if he doesn't exist. The idea that agnostics and atheists act "the same" is false, since an agnostic may also act "the same" as a theist. The "agnostic atheist" is someone who knows there may be arguments for theism but have failed to read them and have decided to reject theism anyway. That's the only explanation I can see, since they beg the question by asserting "agnostic atheism" is the "null" position.
  • SonJnana
    243
    If you look up the definition of the word atheist on google, you will scroll through a bunch of dictionaries that define atheism as a lack of belief or disbelief in god. A lack of belief of a claim does not mean that one believes the claim is false. It simply means there is a lack of belief that the claim is true.

    In common talk a lot of people use the word atheist to mean the belief there is no god and use agnosticism as a middle ground. While a lot of people who call themselves atheist don't use that definition. They use the definition of lack of belief of god, which is in the dictionary. And using that definition, they have no burden of proof.

    I think that when someone says they are an atheist, what is important is that you just ask them to clarify their position. Most self-identified atheists that I know would say that it is just a lack of belief, which is in the dictionary. As long as you understand someone's position, I don't think it matters anymore. At that point you'd just be arguing about semantics of a word which is pointless and distracts from the conversation you would have had.
  • Cavacava
    2.4k
    I am agnostic, and by this I mean that I don't believe in a deity, but I am not sure that there is not some else, and this drives me to think about what that could and what cannot be, to search for an answer(s).

    The atheistic/theistic duality bears the same center point, an all powerful, all knowing, perfect being who loves his creation. The Abrahamic god given the Greek Gift is a masculine belief which is misogynistic at its core in my opinion. The atheistic/theistic dispute goes nowhere because of the god under question.
    The whole conception of god right down to saying that god exists needs to re-thought, re-valued, re-felt, re-vitalized.

    Recently I have been drawn towards pluralistic pantheism, one with no deity but somehow substance monism. Still working on this.
  • Abaoaqu
    11
    I would rather say:

    Agnostic: I believe knowledge of God's existence is unattainable. Or
    I don't know whether God exists or not.

    Either way, (a)gnostics speculate on knowledge of God's existence while (a)theists speculate on the belief of God's existence. What Socrates presumably said "All I know is that i know nothing" is how agnostics feel in regards to God's existence. They can have a belief about the topic, but no knowledge.

    Simply put, to see the difference between agnostics and (a)theists, you have to understand the difference between knowledge and belief.
  • Abaoaqu
    11
    Because beliefs strongly determine how we act, an agnostic, while sustaining the fact that he doesn't know and/ or can't know, will still be more inclined towards atheism or theism, if not he will have the problem you refer to as being "paralyzed" by agnosticism.
  • Abaoaqu
    11


    This would be an agnostic atheist lifestyle (comedy aside) as "it's pointless to talk about [God]".
  • Abaoaqu
    11


    This would be an agnostic theist's lifestyle (comedy aside).
  • anonymous66
    626
    So I think people are "paralyzed" by agnosticism. They don't know how to live life as an agnostic.darthbarracuda
    Why pick on Agnostics and their view of God? What of skeptics and their view of knowledge?
  • JustSomeGuy
    306
    Agnostic: I believe knowledge of God's existence is unattainable.Abaoaqu

    This is the correct use of the term "agnostic" based on the definition given to the term by the man who invented it. Today it has come to be used as a different term altogether, and this bothers me. People argue that language evolves and we should hold whatever the common-use meaning of the word is as the true definition, but personally I think this renders language meaningless. Using words incorrectly should not change the meaning of them.

    In the same way, theism and atheism are opposite beliefs. Atheism is not "a lack of belief" as it has commonly come to be defined. This is a result of atheists realizing they, too, had a burden of proof that they could not provide. So instead of changing their belief and using a new term which describes this new belief, they changed the definition of the term they had always used in order to have it line up with their new belief. It should also be noted that, in my experience, the vast majority of atheists are true atheists--meaning they believe that there is no god, that a god does not exist--but claim to only have a lack of belief to avoid this burden of proof. But I don't claim to be an authority, so take that with a grain of salt.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/agnosticism

    "Agnosticism, (from Greek agnōstos, “unknowable”), strictly speaking, the doctrine that humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience."

    "“It came into my head as suggestively antithetical to the ‘Gnostic’ of Church history who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant.” - T.H. Huxley

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/#DefiAthe

    "The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods)."

    This is based on etymology and grammar. When you add an "a" to the beginning of a term, it signifies a contrast to the original term, an opposite or a "not". So, because theism is the belief that god exists, atheism actually means the belief that god does not exist, or that there are no gods. Likewise, the term agnosticism actually means the belief that we cannot possess knowledge of something, and this can actually be applied to any matter--not just theism.

    My attempts to correct people in the usage of these terms is likely futile, since misuse has become so widespread, but I can't help but try. I always hope that in an environment such as this--with people who either have a philosophical background or at the very least an interest in philosophy--people will be more likely to understand and agree.
  • JustSomeGuy
    306
    So I think people are "paralyzed" by agnosticism. They don't know how to live life as an agnostic.darthbarracuda

    As an agnostic, I'd say this is accurate. I'm constantly going back and forth between "a deity exists" and "no deity exists". It's a difficult position because you don't have a stable belief to hold onto regarding such a significant, all-encompassing issue. But I don't force myself to choose a position because of this, though I can definitely see why many people would.

    I orient myself in life as though God does not exist. I don't expect miracles, I don't expect to go to the afterlife after I die, I don't pray or worship or any of that. All of this is consistent to what an atheist would (not) do.darthbarracuda

    You are referring to a specific concept of god, though. Not every concept of god includes an afterlife or miracles or prayer or worship. The kind of god I would believe in, if I were to decide to give up my agnosticism, would be something like Spinoza's God, which is essentially synonymous with the universe or Nature.

    Yet it could also be said that perhaps morality is dependent on God's existence. An theoretical agnostic might feel compelled to believe in God for the sake of morality.darthbarracuda

    It seems to me that people who think this way haven't really thought it through. If morality depends on gods existence, this means that god decides what is moral. Why would that make anybody feel better about morality? It means there is still no true objectivity to it, no universal or absolute morality, only what god decides. God could change his mind and decide that killing people is moral, and it would be moral. Would that make you feel okay killing people? Not if you're a sane and rational individual.

    Overall I agree with most of what you said though, as well as your conclusion.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    Theist: I believe God exists.
    Atheist: I believe God does not exist.
    Agnostic: I neither believe God exists nor that God does not exist
    darthbarracuda

    NOPE.

    Theist: I believe God exists.
    Atheist: I do not believe in God. I may believe in something but god is not part of that.
    Agnostic: I'm an atheist who doesn't know why. Or I'm a theist who is stupid as I don't even know why I'm accept this belief.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    I do not have any kind of belief that god exists and I know why I think that way.
    That makes me an atheist for NOT having a belief.
    The problem with Theism is that it allows belief to have the same status as knowledge. That's not adequate and I resent being told I have "a belief that god does not exist", which is absurd and assumes that God is some sort of meaningful category. What the fuck is god anyway?
  • charleton
    1.2k
    "The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods)."JustSomeGuy

    Not exactly. As "theism" is a belief, then the "a-" prefix only means to indicate an absence of that belief, not a positive negation, but an absence.
    Apolitical is not a person who rejects politics, it indicates something without a political content. Amoral similarly indicates something without a moral content and is not the same as IMMORAL.
    Think it over!
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    I cannot speak for any religion but Christianity, and within that, not for most fundamentalists. The Christian church frames its creed not with "God exists," but instead with "We believe."

    This devolves to what is meant by "believe."

    I think to ask if God exists is to ask a nonsense question. What matters is to believe and to understand the difference between believing in something and claiming it exists. This understood, the atheist position becomes foolishness itself.

    The (Christian) fundamentalist claim that God exists is simply the private belief of those persons who hold it - it is not in itself Christian, though it borrow heavily from Christian beliefs. At the same time, many fundamentalists want all of us to act as if God exists, without bothering themselves about the difference between belief and existence. For this, I think the burden of proof lies on them, and this they cannot do with or within any kind of reason.
  • JustSomeGuy
    306
    Amoral similarly indicates something without a moral content and is not the same as IMMORAL.charleton

    This is a very interesting point. I tend to believe the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, but you make a good objection. I'll definitely have to reconsider and look into the issue further.

    But this actually makes me wonder something else: when it comes belief, can you really just lack it? No belief one way or the other? Obviously this makes sense in the context of knowledge, but surely if there is an issue we're aware of--even if our knowledge is incomplete--we inevitably hold a belief about the issue based on the knowledge we do have, combined with our own personal faculties of reasoning? As I said earlier, I do consider myself agnostic, but that's because I'm always going back and forth between believing that there is a deity and that there isn't, and I believe that we cannot truly know one way or the other. I don't know if there is a middle ground when it comes to beliefs. It seems to me an unconscious thing. You don't choose what you believe, your brain makes the call based on a variety of factors. You cannot choose to believe in a god. You can't help but believe in a god when you have (what you personally see as) evidence or proof that there is a god. It could even be seen as an evolutionary adaptation of the brain. We need to make judgement calls even when we don't know something for sure, so our brains evolved to make the call for us based on certain factors.

    Is this making sense?
  • JustSomeGuy
    306
    To elaborate on my previous post, I don't believe it's possible for a person to lack belief that a deity does or does not exist. An atheist believes that no deities exist, at least none that we have conceived of. If they did not believe this, they would believe that a deity does exist. There is no middle ground. The question "Do you believe in a deity?" is yes or no. Where is the middle ground?
    To go back to my point about it being an evolutionary adaptation, let's say you're an ape sitting in the jungle eating a piece of fruit. At that moment, you don't believe there are any predators nearby because if you did you would not be sitting there eating, you would be running. You don't know there are no predators nearby, but you believe there are no predators nearby. Then, you hear a noise from a bush a few yards away. At this point, based on your instincts and your accumulated knowledge through past experiences, your brain makes a judgement call on whether this noise could be a predator. If these things don't add up to "the noise is a predator" in your brain, you continue believe there are no predators nearby, and keep eating. If these things do add up to "the noise is a predator", you now believe that there is a predator nearby, so you run. Nowhere in that process do you decide what you believe; your brain makes the call based on a variety of factors.

    Is it not the same for any belief, including theistic belief?
  • Marty
    224
    The fact that people would deny any of that is criminal now.
  • BC
    13.6k
    I like this formulation, "The Christian church frames its creed not with "God exists," but instead with "We believe."

    "fundamentalists want all of us to act as if God exists" as a fact.

    One of my objections to Christians (fundamentalist or mainline) confidently claiming that God is a trinity of persons, or that God is omnipresent, and so on, is that they end up tying themselves in knots trying to explain these terms or justifying the existence of concepts like the Trinity in the first place.

    On Sunday (at the post-worship Lutheran Coffee Hour) I suggested to a couple of seminarian types that we should just get rid of the Trinity. Gasp! But that would mean losing the Holy Spirit?

    "Why would it mean a loss of anything", I asked. "Surely God almighty, the infinite, all powerful being that we claim God to be, can manage the function of the Holy Spirit without having to spin off a separate person."
  • charleton
    1.2k
    But this actually makes me wonder something else: when it comes belief, can you really just lack it? No belief one way or the other?JustSomeGuy

    I think you will agree that many people hold beliefs for many different reasons, some for no real reason at all except that they have been told as a child that such and such is the case?
    The word belief comes in for a range of meanings rendering it utterly useless since it is also perfectly reasonable to use say "I believe one and one is two".
    I find it helpful to deny that I believe anything. So far this has not meant I've had any problems with people understanding my position. I only use 'belief' for matters that I am not sure about; I use "know" for things I feel happy enough to argue a case for. But hold all knowledge to be contingent on the evidence and reasons that support it.
    I also hold 'aspirations'. Things like "I believe in equality", is not like I know people are free but I aspire to a future where the law is even handed and people feel they are treated equally.
    Throwing belief out of my personal lexicon have been very useful since it had made me think more carefully about things I hold to be true, and to identify things that are speculative.

    I recommend this to anyone willing to listen.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    It could even be seen as an evolutionary adaptation of the brain.JustSomeGuy

    I think this is a cop-out for lazy people who find it hard to think and would rather find the easy way out of using their brain but want some excuse.
    If we are hardwired for god, then surely there could be no atheists at all?
  • JustSomeGuy
    306
    I think you will agree that many people hold beliefs for many different reasons, some for no real reason at all except that they have been told as a child that such and such is the case? The word belief comes in for a range of meanings rendering it utterly useless since it is also perfectly reasonable to use say "I believe one and one is two".charleton

    I do agree there are many reasons why people believe things--some of which we probably can't understand completely because they have to do with the inner workings of the mind. But why people believe the things that they believe is a complicated question, and writing the concept of belief off as useless is short-sighted.
    Saying "I believe one and one is two" is a reasonable statement because we all have overwhelming evidence that it is true, yet we do not truly know for certain that it is. I think I already said something along these lines in the discussion of faith a few days back, but virtually every single thing we think we know is, in reality, a belief. Even things such as "the Earth is round" or "water is composed of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule" are beliefs we hold. We view them as knowledge because we are so certain of them, but the vast majority of us don't actually have empirical knowledge of them. We take it on faith that the people who have told us these things were telling us the truth. Obviously this is perfectly reasonable, but the fact still remains that none of these things are true knowledge.

    I only use 'belief' for matters that I am not sure about; I use "know" for things I feel happy enough to argue a case for. But hold all knowledge to be contingent on the evidence and reasons that support it.charleton

    And that's fine, but when discussing these concepts in a philosophical context, we need to be explicit about the necessity of belief in the true sense of the word.

    Throwing belief out of my personal lexicon have been very useful since it had made me think more carefully about things I hold to be true, and to identify things that are speculative.charleton
    I think this is a cop-out for lazy people who find it hard to think and would rather find the easy way out of using their brain but want some excuse.charleton

    This certainly is the case for many people. I personally witnessed this in my own mother years ago when discussing something to do with religion. I can't remember the exact issue, but I was arguing something against one of her religious beliefs, and she simply told me that she saw my point and had no counter argument, but that she "just believed" it to be true. So the term belief may be given a bad rap by people such as her, but that doesn't mean we should just throw it out--especially as philosophers.

    But although this is all interesting to discuss, I don't think you ever responded to the actual question I was asking: is it even possible to lack belief in any issue that you are aware of? Of course if you aren't aware of something you won't hold a belief about it, but if you have knowledge or experience with a certain issue, surely you hold a belief about it. That belief may even be subconscious, but my point was that it seems to me that our brains decide for themselves what we're going to believe based on the information we possess combined with our own faculties for reason.
    Do you choose not to believe in god? Of course not, because if you did you could choose to believe in god. It's actually very similar to the homosexuality issue. We may not know exactly what makes people homosexual or heterosexual--though we have good reason to believe it involves a combination of genetics and environment--but we do know that people cannot choose to be heterosexual or homosexual. The same goes for our beliefs.
    This all probably leads into the free will vs. determinism debate, as well, but I'll leave that for another time.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k

    I think the crux of much of theism of Western/Abrahamic variety is very much based on Anslem's ontological argument. This is definitely seen in Christianity (the most "romance novel" of the religions), but also seen in Kabbalistic/speculative aspects of Judaism, and some theological aspects of Islam. It's a very Platonic idea of the Good. It is the idea of the most perfect being. Do you like physical pleasure? God is the most perfect pleasure- in fact it isn't really pleasure but profound mystical bliss that cannot be described with words... or so the ideas would go.. The Platonic notions of the most perfect good. God is the most perfect completeness, the whole, the whole story, etc. etc.

    In a way this idea is like the "romance novels" of religion. There is this romantic ideal of the perfect being. This vision is anthropomorphized as experiential reality is projected on a SUPER being that is equated with perfect reality. What of the idea that experienceness is only a quality of animals? How is it a quality of the universe writ large? Just human projection in my opinion.

    So, my conclusion then is the superstitious nature of humans, the incomprehensible nature of reality outside our human understanding of it, provides the impetus to speculate about a god with the most perfect nature. We cannot get outside experience and it shows in our theological speculations.
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    On Sunday (at the post-worship Lutheran Coffee Hour) I suggested to a couple of seminarian types that we should just get rid of the Trinity. Gasp! But that would mean losing the Holy Spirit?Bitter Crank

    Unitarians have already made this breakthrough. Much good it has done them in the recruitment stakes. But it means they get on better with Muslims than most other Christian types.
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    When we are discussing the existence of God, there are three main positionsdarthbarracuda

    I feel I have, in one sense, an atheist equivalent of timwood's position. I don't feel obliged to have some sort of ontology of ontologies in order to have a rich intellectual life. So all this bother about 'existence' of deities doesn't matter to me. I was brought up without gods and there doesn't seem to be a gap in my outlook where gods would fit the space.

    Secondly, I think it's a local historical accident that deities have been boiled down to a mono capitalised God. Lots of societies talk of multiple gods, and good luck to them. Pluralism makes more sense to me than monism.

    Thirdly, there is a question of practice. I greatly admire people who have a spiritual practice of one kind or another. It seems to feed into or underlie a way of living that often makes overall sense, even though it may be Buddhist, or Catholic, or atheist with poetic leanings, or whatever. Here I feel I deviate from being an atheist a la timwood. These practices tend to be performed as if this, that or the other were there, present, perhaps 'existing', without the question of 'belief' precisely coming up. I had a mother, I loved her dearly, she died, I sometimes ask her in my imagination for guidance. There doesn't seem to be 'belief' in this mental arrangement.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    Saying "I believe one and one is two" is a reasonable statement because we all have overwhelming evidence that it is true, yet we do not truly know for certain that it is.JustSomeGuy
    No, this is definitively true.
    And that's fine, but when discussing these concepts in a philosophical context, we need to be explicit about the necessity of belief in the true sense of the word.JustSomeGuy
    Exactly why I almost never use the word belief. It is too vague.
    is it even possible to lack belief in any issue that you are aware of? Of course if you aren't aware of something you won't hold a belief about it, but if you have knowledge or experience with a certain issue, surely you hold a belief about it.JustSomeGuy

    Given the vagueness of the definition of belief I do not see how you question can warrant a response.
    Do you choose not to believe in god? Of course not, because if you did you could choose to believe in god. It's actually very similar to the homosexuality issue.JustSomeGuy

    You may not choose to believe in God; though many do. But one thing is for sure you can choose to reject that belief.
    Most people's experience is that as a child they were told what to believe. As one grows older many keep on with that like an old coat, but growing-up ought to be a process of replacing the childish mantle of belief and seeking to know about the world. Sapere Aude.

    Choice determined or free is still a choice. I urge people to have the audacity to think and to change their minds.
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