democracy — Posty McPostface

Does that mean dictatorship of the uneducated majority? :P

Hah! Let's see what Mueller has to say about that. — Posty McPostface

I honestly don't think Mueller will find anything. Even if Trump did collude, he would have been smart enough to cover his tracks. Usually what happens in these scenarios is that the person who committed the crime is smart enough and covers their tracks, so they end up accused of some other, relatively minor thing, just to get them arrested. Like what happened with Shkreli. He made fun of Congress, they couldn't get him for fraud, so they got him for saying something about Hillary Clinton on his facebook.

So it is possible to know that someone is guilty, without having any evidence. In that case, often the people in charge will look for any possible reason to convict the person. But it's a social thing... if the people in charge don't want to convict you, you don't get convicted.

The FBI works in mysterious ways.

Some countries are shitholes. And saying so isn't racist. Trump may be a racist, but his recent comment wasn't. — Thorongil

There's a difference between saying something like "that country is a shithole" and asking “why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?”. The latter is a highly disparaging remark about people based on their country of origin.

It might not be racist to say "Africa is a terrible country to live in" but it is racist to say "we don't want Africans coming here."

It's my understanding that we don't know the exact remarks, only that he referred to certain countries as shitholes.

You just said "his recent comment wasn't [racist]". How can you say that if you're now going to say that we don't what his comment was?

I'm just going on what was reported, (e.g. here), which I believe has been confirmed by Durbin and Scott (who says to have been told so by Graham). The report might be wrong, but if it isn't then the outrage and accusations of racism are warranted.

Most reports agree he called certain countries shitholes. Beyond that, things become more sketchy.

Most reports agree he called certain countries shitholes. Beyond that, things become more sketchy. — Thorongil

I think most reports are quoting him as saying “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here? We should have more people from places like Norway” and "'Why do we need more Haitians? Take them out".

Which ties into the context of it being a meeting on immigration.

Not the ones I read. Plus, Trump himself has denied your version: "Never said anything derogatory about Haitians other than Haiti is, obviously, a very poor and troubled country. Never said ‘take them out.’ Made up by Dems. I have a wonderful relationship with Haitians. Probably should record future meetings — unfortunately, no trust!"

If true, this confirms what I said the comment was about. Should we trust the president? Maybe not, but then, I'm not going to trust Dick Durbin either.

I trust Durbin over Trump. Given that Scott confirms Durbin's report, that Graham hasn't commented in public, that two other Republicans haven't denied it but only claimed to not recall (the cynic in me thinks it unlikely that they have such bad memories and are just unwilling to tell the truth because it hurts the guy on their team), and that Trump has a history of lying, I think Durbin has far more credibility.

It would be a silly thing for Durbin to make up, given that there were a number of Republicans in the room who would be happy to refute his claims were they false. Whereas Trump lying about not saying it makes sense.

So I assume we agree that "why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" is a racist thing to ask, but just disagree on whether or not Trump asked it. That's fine by me.

Trump is a racist. This was already clear during the election. That's also the reason why these remarks aren't going to change anything. In general we can suspect people defending trump to be racists too in their attempts to try to paint on some pc-veneer through denial or obfuscation or they'll deflect by saying "well, I voted for him cause of his economics". The reality is the US is either a) a pretty Fucking racist country or b) entirely partisan. Either way a shithole country.

Trump speaks in a stream of consciousness sort of style and probably says a lot of absurd things over the course of a meeting. I can imagine people not recalling what he said and Dick Durbin trying to score political points.

So I assume we agree that "why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" is a racist thing to ask, but just disagree on whether or not Trump asked it. That's fine by me. — Michael

I don't know if it would be racist, no. A sovereign nation can pick and choose who immigrates to it for a variety of reasons. The operative reason for denying Haitians, say, might be that they wouldn't contribute economically.

Trump is a racist. — Benkei

I don't think so.

The reality is the US is either a) a pretty Fucking racist country or b) entirely partisan. Either way a shithole country. — Benkei

This is a pretty crazy thing to say.

It might not be racist to say "Africa is a terrible country to live in" but it is racist to say "we don't want Africans coming here." — Michael

So, Mr. Politically Correct, how many Congoians would you want coming to the UK versus how many Dutch would you want?

The reality is the US is either a) a pretty Fucking racist country or b) entirely partisan. Either way a shithole country. — Benkei

Regarding (a), who preceded Trump?

It might not be racist to say "Africa is a terrible country to live in" but it is racist to say "we don't want Africans coming here." — Michael

Calling Africa a country and lumping together the entirety of the continent as "a shithole" is what I would take to be a proof positive of racism and crass stupidity.

So, Mr. Politically Correct, how many Congoians would you want coming to the UK versus how many Dutch would you want? — Hanover

This is such a nonsense question. Why would I want a particular number of people coming into (or not coming into) the UK?

Also, what do you mean by "politically correct"? Is it "not a racist"?

It's even more nonsense because it is predicated on the belief that the Dutch are not a completely forgettable people.

The who?

Quick lad! (Y)

Why would I want a particular number of people coming into (or not coming into) the UK? — Michael

A slight edit for this post. The more I read it, but more I am dumbfounded as to how you could think this question unimportant.

So, Mr. Politically Correct, how many Congoians would you want coming to the UK versus how many Dutch would you want? — Hanover

It's Congolese.

Several things can be true at one time.

• Trump is racist.
• Haiti is a shit hole.
• People who live in shit hole countries would rather live somewhere else; that's why they come here.
• People who work at the UN and various African intergovernmental agencies are professionally obligated to object to generalizations which may be only somewhat true and not be entirely false.

The more I read it, but more I am dumbfounded as to how you could think this question unimportant. — Thorongil

And I wonder what that says about our respective values.

This doesn't really address the issue, which is a claim like "we don't want people from these countries coming here".

To put it in comparison, after Katrina New Orleans was a shithole, and to call it a shithole would probably be an accurate thing to say. But it would be awful of the Mayor of some nearby, but not affected, city to say "we don't want people from that shithole coming here."

Why would anyone want the Dutch?
When did you stop voting for Brexit?

When did you stop voting for Brexit? — Bitter Crank

I never voted for Brexit.

Also, it was a one-off, so I'm not sure what you even mean by that question.

The Dutch don't appear to want the Dutch if you look at their birth rates.

That you don't think any countries have them, or that bringing in immigrants can't change them, or if they can, never for the worse? Yeah, maybe.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.