The best I have come up with is that procreation is necessary to maintain civilization. But is civilization an end in itself? I think not. And this rationale might boil down to egotism in the end. — Thorongil
I want to understand what positive reasons there are to have children, specifically those that are not based in egotism. Thus far, I have failed to find any. The best I have come up with is that procreation is necessary to maintain civilization. But is civilization an end in itself? I think not. And this rationale might boil down to egotism in the end. — Thorongil
I suppose if there is a God and he commanded procreation, then it would be selfless in that case, but I am not in fact religious myself at present, so this can't be appealed to. — Thorongil
if you believe life is inherently good and enjoyable — Maw
Even supposing your partner wanted children out of a sort of egoism, if you were doing it for your partner, that seems to me like it would count as a non-selfish reason. — Moliere
In some sense we can see all motivations or consequences as centrally related to an ego. — Moliere
I don't think there are any rational reasons for having children. — T Clark
Anything in response to my first response? — schopenhauer1
I don't buy that either, as it depends on the claim that experiencing life is intrinsically good. I don't think it is. What would be the reason that it is? Because one can feel pleasure? Well, then we're back to a selfish reason at bottom. — Thorongil
I guess they would respond, "What's wrong with wanting a child to go into existence to feel pleasure/happiness"? — schopenhauer1
Because pleasure isn't an intrinsic but an instrumental good and therefore inherently selfish. — Thorongil
Why is inherently selfish bad? — schopenhauer1
1) What is your definition of intrinsic and instrumental good? — schopenhauer1
1a) Why isn't pleasure an intrinsic good? — schopenhauer1
2) Why is inherently selfish bad? — schopenhauer1
So you're no hedonist. — Marchesk
Does that mean hedonists would necessarily disagree with antinatalism, or only if pleasure outweighed the pain of being alive? — Marchesk
What about giving? A gift can be egotistical -- a display of ownership or power -- but I'd say there is also compassionate giving. — Moliere
None, but I'm in my 20s. — Thorongil
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