So, the Trump administration is pissed off at Trudeau but after reading 5 articles trying to divine what it was Trudeau said, I'm still non the wiser. Did anybody find out why?

We have all been on notice for some time - for some people a very long time - how destructively toxic Trump is to everything he touches. We suppose there are things even he cannot poison. Well, he has poisoned the relationship between Canada and the US, and what good can come of that? Good for Mr. Putin, that's what!

Trump is the enemy of the people, all of the people; he is without ethics or scruple; lacking any compass whatsoever that points to the good, he cannot accomplish any. He is evil loose on a scale not seen since Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Most of us (white Americans) suppose we're not in his crosshairs, but we are mistaken in thinking so. His evil touches everybody directly or indirectly.

Our founders knew we could elect a bad person - whether the possibility of an evil person crossed their minds is an open question - and provided frequent elections and impeachment as remedies.

We impeach presidents for adulterous behaviour, or more precisely lying about it, when, arguably, that ought to be off the table. But we don't impeach for actions and lies that directly threaten our security and well-being and tend to destroy the integrity of the nation.

I hope Mueller hurries up and I hope the Democrats sweep the midterms. I hope we have impeachment and conviction and a string of indictments leading to convictions and no-nonsense punitive punishments. I hope we can demonstrate to the world that, while our own collective compass was misplaced for a while, we never lost our sense of direction while we were being misled. And that we repent in sackcloth and ashes that misplacement, and that a Congress full of un-American Republicans delayed our getting it back.

What's Trump ever done to you personally?

Trump is the enemy of the people, all of the people; he is without ethics or scruple; lacking any compass whatsoever that points to the good, he cannot accomplish any. He is evil loose on a scale not seen since Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Most of us (white Americans) suppose we're not in his crosshairs, but we are mistaken in thinking so. His evil touches everybody directly or indirectly. — tim wood

Trump derangement syndrome.

But why did the Democrats rig their own primary process to nominate a corrupt, warmongering corporatist, and total political incompetent like Hillary Clinton? I'm curious. Does your hate of Trump allow you to see that the Democrats bear significant responsibility for his election? I can trace the corruption and fall of the Democratic party directly to Hillary's impassioned speech on the floor of the Senate in favor of the Iraq war; and the New York Times lying about Saddam's WMDs in order to promote that same war.

And before Trump ran for president, he was friends with the Clintons. He was Bubba's golfing buddy. What do you think Trump and Bubba talked about? Women's rights? Or pussy? What do you think?

The corruption of the Democrats made Trump inevitable. And what did the DNC do this week?Passed an anti-Bernie bill that requires a candidate for the Dem nomination to be an official member of the party. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/09/bid-to-block-bernie-sanders-dnc-adopts-rule-change-wants-only-avowed-democrats-to-run.html

If Trump is uniquely evil, what are the Democrats?

Democrats bear significant responsibility for his election — fishfry

I love how the party of "personal responsibility" will point fingers at nearly everyone but themselves as the reason for "How We Got Trump". Conservatives vigorously accuse 'Social Justice Warriors', the 'miasma' of Political Correctness, or the wild idea that labeling someone a Nazi or Fascist or Racist, will transform them into a Nazi/Fascist/Racist. As a far left progressive, I'm not a big proponent of the centrists Democrats or Hillary Clinton, but I'd greatly prefer them to the Republicans, whose 40+ years modus operandi have, much more than the Democrats, is responsible for the nomination of Trump, his Presidential win, and the incomprehensible fact that he enjoys a 85%+ approval rating by self-described Republicans.

So, the Trump administration is pissed off at Trudeau but after reading 5 articles trying to divine what it was Trudeau said, I'm still non the wiser. Did anybody find out why? — Benkei

Trudeau (or one of his sherpas, actually) said that it would be 'insulting toward the memory of our fallen soldiers on various battlefield for U.S. to claim that Canada was a national threat.' The term "insulting" was lifted from a communique from last year where apparently Trump had himself said the very same thing, promising there wouldn't be any tariffs.

Apparently, Donnie can call just about anyone a liar, a cheater or a danger for the U.S. security, but he takes offense to someone saying "hey, that's a bit insulting, you know".

Anyways, doesn't matter, everyone knows Ivanka totally thirsts for Justin, and in the end I trust that love will prevails over all.

What's Trump ever done to you personally? — Buxtebuddha

Can't answer for Tim, but up here, Trump is literally trying to force me to drink more pus.

US dairy's quality is a lot lower than ours. Dead cells particulates per litter is a lot higher, which is quite literally pus.

Imo, trying to make people drink more pus is quite objectionable on its own. Even if they aren't Murrikans.

Can't answer for Tim, but up here, Trump is literally trying to force me to drink more pus. — Akanthinos

I missed that in my local paper. 'Splain me please?

Trump is literally this, literally that. And don't you forget, he's literally Hitler, too.

I missed that in my local paper. 'Splain me please? — fishfry

A good part of the trade war issue rest on the fact that Canada runs dairies according to a supply chain management system. That allows dairy farmers to know exactly how much they can expect to produce without devaluating the product. Which in turns means that the farmer's jobs are a metric crapton more secure than in the US, where a single too good year can kill a farm. That's nuts.

So Trump wants us to kill our dairy management system, so that US farms can dump their overproduction on our market. Like I said in the Shoutbox yesterday, this is absolutely insane, as Wisconscin alone produces more dairy than Canada does or need. And the vast majority of our production is aimed at our own consumption too.

The other big problem with this is that US milk is of considerably worse quality than Canada's. They simply do not have the level of regulation we have concerning filtration. As raw milk contains (living) white blood cells, what you drink, when you pour it in a glass, contains dead leukocytes, i.e. pus.

Do you want me to drink more pus? Then Trump is your candidate! :worry:

A good part of the trade war issue rest on the fact that Canada runs dairies according to a supply chain management system — Akanthinos

I'll have to plead ignorance. I'm appalled that Trump has picked a fight with Canada but I haven't followed the details regarding milk.

Milk. Wish we had your problems.

I'm appalled that Trump has picked a fight with Canada — fishfry

Meh. Seems like it is his favourite negociation strategy. I imagine he thinks being unpredictable is a good thing.

The trade war is a show that will likely benefit both our baboons. The one thing to takeaway here is that one of the political Seven Seals was broken. If you can claim protective measures against a "Close Allie" because that close allie is a National security threat, then anyone can protect anything, anytime. as much as I'd like them to, the OMC can't do squat about it.

Milk. Wish we had your problems. — Banno

Milk is not our problem. Its the billions in tariff Trump decided to impose on us because we actually got our milk shit figured out instead of the bovine bordello you guys are intent on running down there.

Meh. Seems like it is his favourite negociation strategy. I imagine he thinks being unpredictable is a good thing. — Akanthinos

What has the centrist consensus gotten us? A dozen illegal semi-covert wars, torture camps, and $20T in debt [ok well the GOP are making that a lot worse], attacks on free speech from the left and the right. The American public chose to blow up the system rather than continue business as usual. That's what Trump is doing. We'll have to give it a few years to see the actual results. Meanwhile I regard the thesis that "Trump is Hitler" as irrational hysteria with zero basis in fact.

So just for my info, since I really haven't followed this story ... I do put a splash of milk in my morning coffee. Do I need to worry about something?

II love how the party of "personal responsibility" will point fingers at nearly everyone but themselves as the reason for "How We Got Trump". Conservatives vigorously accuse 'Social Justice Warriors', the 'miasma' of Political Correctness, or the wild idea that labeling someone a Nazi or Fascist or Racist, will transform them into a Nazi/Fascist/Racist. — Maw

Fishfry said nothing in his post to indicate that he was a Republican. On the contrary, his points were all in line with a far-left critique of the democratic party. So I find it concerning that you jump straight into attacking republicans, thus misrepresenting his points straight off as some sort of republican projection, rather than substantively engaging with someone who is offering a much needed critique of the democratic party's behavior. I find it concerning because I don't feel that we on the left are engaging in anything like the soul-searching we need, and the left seems to simply attack anyone who offers the types of complaints that ought to be the basis of this much needed soul-searching.

As a far left progressive, I'm not a big proponent of the centrists Democrats or Hillary Clinton, but I'd greatly prefer them to the Republicans, whose 40+ years modus operandi have, much more than the Democrats, is responsible for the nomination of Trump, his Presidential win, and the incomprehensible fact that he enjoys a 85%+ approval rating by self-described Republicans. — Maw

Indeed, I think that every left-leaning person agrees that the democrats are currently much better than the Republicans. And the Republicans are responsible for Trump. But this still doesn't absolve the democratic party and far-left movements of responsibility. The left needs to ask how we got to this place, and what level of responsibility we have for the current situation.

I think the concern which fishfry raises - if I read him correctly - is that the far left is not in any meaningful sense an alternative to a corrupt democratic party. It's possible, for example, to be a hedge fund manager and a feminist. So the democratic party is currently catering to the far left by playing social justice games which are more about enabling certain opponents within a corrupt power struggle internal to the rich and powerful. Social justice as crony-capitalist window dressing. I'm reminded of something I saw on MSNBC a few months ago. Chuck Todd said: Sure, Gina Haspel is a craven torturer, but it's a refreshing sign of progress that we have broken the glass ceiling and will - for the first time ever! - have a female director of the CIA. Personally I don't want to live in a world where torture becomes "progressive".

Fishfry said nothing in his post to indicate that he was a Republican. On the contrary, his points were all in line with a far-left critique of the democratic party. So I find it concerning that you jump straight into attacking republicans, thus misrepresenting his points straight off as some sort of republican projection, — John Doe

Thanks much. This is the second time in two days that @Maw did the same thing, which is why I didn't bother to reply. Yes, my disgust with the state of modern liberalism comes from decades of having considered myself a liberal. I understand why Trump got elected. I don't necessarily endorse his policies. And the Dems don't appear to even have policies anymore, just anti-Trump rhetoric. That's the problem. Trump calls MS-13 "animals," Pelosi defends MS-13. Is this not insanity?

I really appreciate that at least one person here understands exactly where I'm coming from.

...you guys... — Akanthinos

Not I.

It's just that Trump is not the main story.

The way I see it, accelerationism is just whataboutism rebranded for the Trump era.

Breakneck speed serves one purpose : breaking one's neck. It's not how we leaves our problems in the dust.

Ah, sorry.

I really appreciate that at least one person here understands exactly where I'm coming from. — fishfry

More than one. I agree with pretty much everything you've posted on the issue.

How old are you! Not old enough to have encountered an evil person, it appears. And why does he have to have done anything to me personally for me to judge him? What kind of a standard is that? As it happens, he has made my country worse. Every lie takes from me directly or indirectly. He fouls the air. He corrupts everything around him, until everything around is corrupt, or was already corrupt. Name any good person around him.

If you cannot tell the difference between Hillary and Donald, then do us a favour and don't vote until you can.

If Trump is uniquely evil, what are the Democrats? — fishfry

Do you even understand what you wrote? Do you understand what "unique" means? And I further do not understand the purpose of your reply. I argue that Trump is not just a late-night TV joke. He is a dangerously bad man. In what respect is any comment about anyone else, or any group of persons relevant?

It's a defense of misdirection. In your case mindless incomprehension. But I'll help you out. Try to think of any good that Trump ever even tried to do, or any good person associated with him (Melania excepted - I have no evidence she's bad in any way). Wait, I can think of one. He recently pardoned a woman sentenced under a very harsh law. That's one for him. There are hundreds more he can attend to - will he even do one more? Um, maybe not, too busy pardoning the likes of Arpaio.

As it happens, he has made my country worse. — tim wood

For what it's worth, I think this is the correct response to what he has done to each of us *personally*. I had been away from the US for four years before going back for a few weeks earlier this year and the difference was absolutely astonishing. People have become very noticeably more selfish, resentful, disrespectful, etc. in all kinds of small ways it's hard to characterize. I'm not sure if Americans have noticed this or if it's a bit of a frog-in-boiling-water situation. And Republicans have to be staggeringly credulous to believe that this general atmosphere of resentment is unrelated to a sitting president who constantly insults millions of citizens.

Beyond that, I find it sort of perplexing that so many people are being duped by such an obviously repugnant, mean-spirited, narcissistic, truly ugly human-being. My best guess is that it's because the politics of team sport and hate the other side has consumed people's psyche. People would rather heap adoration on a cheap huckster than admit those they hate have decent points to make.

It's a defense of misdirection. In your case mindless incomprehension. — tim wood

To 's point, I think his response to you is emblematic of those of us - I hope he'll allow me to lump him in here - who are as disgusted by Trump, and everything he does and represents, as humanly possible, yet worry that the left has become engulfed with an attitude of resentment and hate which is far less bad than the Republicans but still deeply troubling and certainly compounds matters.

(Sorry, couple small edits for fear I might be misconstrued.)

He is a dangerously bad man. — tim wood

And Hillary was a dangerously bad woman. We could do this all day. I've said my piece and one person understood me, which is one more than usual in these political discussions. There's an election in November, we'll all find out at the same time what the American people think. Or as Churchill said, the greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

The only point I'm attacking is the only point that was explicitly offered:the hypoxic conservative analysis that we "Got Trump" because of liberals, whether it's due through the Democratic Party, or the concept of "Social Justice Warriors", or left-wing intellectual elitism, etc. Insofar as this is, roughly, @fishfry's claim ("The corruption of the Democrats made Trump inevitable"), this is an absurdity that requires - demands - countering and correcting. And it is unequivocally not a critique in harmony with the Far Left. I know of no one on the Far Left who would claim that " the Democrats bear significant responsibility for his election", as if the Right is somehow absolved of agency.

I agree that the Democratic Party is in need of stronger, better articulated policies (although Bernie Sanders, undeniably, had an unambiguous popular message, and was far closer to winning the nomination than your critique of the Democratic Party accepts). Clinton's message was amorphous, her policies a convoluted mosaic. But liberal self-flagellation will only embolden the Republican Party even more. Not only is it a mistaken interpretation, but it is dangerous.

"Soul-Searching" is fine, but the hesitation that comes with it should not be prioritized over the very real damage and degradation that Trump, his administration, his party, and his acolytes commit on a quotidian basis.

This is the second time in two days that Maw did the same thing — fishfry

Last time I responded to you was actually five days ago, not two, and you provided the asinine claim that the Left are destroying free speech and the first amendment. Multiple members, not just me, asked you to provide examples of this and you didn't. As far as I'm aware, these are the only times I've engaged your posts on this forum. Twice now you simply refuse to reply to me when I take you to task.

we "Got Trump" because of liberals, whether it's due through the Democratic Party, or the concept of "Social Justice Warriors", or left-wing intellectual elitism, etc. — Maw

See you DO understand. You're just in denial. The day Hillary stood up on the floor of the US Senate and spoke passionately in favor of the Iraq war; the day Pelosi was briefed on torture and signed off; those are the datapoints on the road to Trump. And it's funny, because you clearly DO get it. You just don't want to face it.

Multiple members, not just me, asked you to provide examples of this and you didn't. — Maw

It's boring to have to read people the news.

... liberal self-flagellation ... — Maw

Some people call that introspection.

Last time I responded to you was actually five days ago, not two — Maw

I consider my entire thesis demolished.

And it is unequivocally not a critique in harmony with the Far Left. I know of no one on the Far Left who would claim that " the Democrats bear significant responsibility for his election", as if the Right is somehow absolved of agency. — Maw

Well, not that they are much worthy of notice, but that's the general rhetoric you'll find easily on wsws.org.

Not that it's a valid critique from the start.

And Hillary was a dangerously bad woman — fishfry

I wonder. Would President Hillary have ridiculed our closest allies? Would she have passed a massive tax cut which overwhelmingly favors the rich and corporations over the poor and middle class? Would she have tried to destroy the ACA? Would she gut coverage for preexisting conditions as Trump and his administration are trying to do now? Would she implement a no-tolerance policy on illegal immigration, formally splitting families apart when they attempt to cross the border (illegally and legally)? Would she embolden ICE to detain immigrants who have lived in this country for years, if not decades, if not most of their lives? Would her election embolden white supremacists and Neo-Nazi's to conduct parades, or run for office in America and across the world? Would she elect a climate change denier to the EPA? Would she deny Russian involvement in the USA election? This list goes on, and I can "do this all day", because attempting to commensurate Hillary with Trump is simply wrong.

The day Hillary stood up on the floor of the US Senate and spoke passionately in favor of the Iraq war; the day Pelosi was briefed on torture and signed off; those are the datapoints on the road to Trump. — fishfry

Ah, so nearly 16 years ago Hillary gave a speech in favor of the Iraq War, and fatalistically, this has lead to Trump winning the presidency. This is vacuous, and coddles the Republicans by refusing to provide them with an iota of agency.

And "face" what? I was twelve when Hillary gave that speech. Am I complicit in something the Democratic party did six years before I could vote?