You go back to doing what you did before. That's the answer. — Baden

Catch and release?

We can go back to treating it as a civil issue and not separate families. — Jeremiah

No, we cannot. Treating it as a civil issue depended on those who were issued a court date actually showing up. The majority of those issued a court date never showed.

Not criminally prosecuting every case.

No, it's not across the board. It's about making exceptions for those who have kids.

"There is no law that says children must be taken from their parents if they cross the border unlawfully, and previous administrations have made exceptions for those traveling with minor children when prosecuting immigrants for illegal entry."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/politics/trump-immigration-separation-border.html

You don't have to do this.

"Representative Pramila Jayapal, Democrat of Washington, who recently visited 174 women apprehended at the border and being held in a federal prison facility in SeaTac, said some of them reported having been told that they needed to briefly leave their children to be photographed or see a judge, only to return and find the children had been taken away.

“They were forced to leave their children in this room, and then when they came back, the children were gone, and not a single one of them was able to say goodbye,” Ms. Jayapal said in an interview on Friday. "

This is what you're supporting, Tiff.

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

We don't solve our immigration issues by becoming monsters. Even if the right path is harder we still travel it because that is what moral people do.

So because person X does not show up for court then your purposed solution is to take person Y's children away?

So that means if I run someone over then skip on bail we get to throw you in prison? Am I getting this right? I mean you are suggesting we punish unrelated individuals for someone's else crime, right?

This is what you're supporting, Tiff. — Baden

I read the article but thank you for the highlight. I am a Mom so I do understand what the threat of that would mean to me. I am not in their situation and I do have EMPATHY for them and what they are fleeing.

But contrast that to those who remain after the Catch and release program whose children are now enrolled in school, receiving food stamps, medical care and any state aide that they qualify for because as a minor they have to be cared for by the state, legal resident or not.

So the taxes we pay are going not to improve our schools, to help our homeless or those who are hungry. No, they are being absorbed by the 'tax' that non legal citizens are putting on our social structure.

Do you realize the amount you're complaining about is absolutely dwarfed by the amount Trump just gave away to corporations and the rich in tax breaks? And that said corporations are not re-investing but buying their own shares with it. That you have a military budget of 700 billion and growing. Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of their tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up.

So because person X does not show up for court then your purposed solution is to take person's Y children away?

So that means if I run someone over then skip on bail we get to throw you in prison? Am I getting this right? I mean you are suggesting we punish unrelated individuals for someone's else crime, right? — Jeremiah

Not exactly. If you skip on bail, you get tossed into prison. If enough people skip bail, then the bail bondsman would go out of business and yes, coming up with bail would probably not be an option for many people.

I am not saying that the current should pay for the prior's crime. What I am saying is that it is possible to be taken advantage of and there comes a limit as to how much you can take care of others without losing sight of your own self preservation.

Do you realize the amount you're complaining about is absolutely dwarfed by the amount Trump just gave away to corporations and the rich in tax breaks? And that said corporations are not re-investing but buying their own shares with it. That you have a military budget of 700 billion. Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of your tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up. — Baden

Then why is anyone wanting to come here?

What has that got to do with anything I've said?

Do you realize the amount you're complaining about is absolutely dwarfed by the amount Trump just gave away to corporations and the rich in tax breaks? And that said corporations are not re-investing but buying their own shares with it. That you have a military budget of 700 billion and growing. Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of their tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up. — Baden

If we are so messed up, then why are people trying to get into the USA, illegally if necessary?

Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of their tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up. — Baden

Which I also do around friends who are here in this country illegally. :zip:

It gets really complicated, really fast.

I repeat. This has nothing to do with anything I've said. Why people want to immigrate to the US is irrelevant to the point I just made.



It would be more honest to tell them directly what you think about them stealing your tax dollars in my view. Take a position. Stick with it if you believe in it. I'll debate you but I'll respect the fact that that's your position if I know what it is.

And to you the obvious and only solution is to take children as hostages?

That is the part that is flying right over your head. You are sitting here arguing immigration, while everyone else is appalled with the tactics that are being used.

This is not a simple difference of political ideologies; no matter where you stand on the issue any morally aware individual finds these tactics shocking, evil and way over the top. Yet here you are, acting like it is the same old conversation as always.

@ArguingWAristotleTiff
I mean I don't doubt your good intentions on this or anything, but I want to shake your perspective any way I can. I'm sure you feel the same.

It would be more honest to tell them directly what you think about them stealing your tax dollars in my view. — Baden

It would be more honest and if asked I probably would express it but that is likely why the topic has never come up. This particular friend, whose girlfriend is here illegally, and I go at political debates like it is a blood sport and I do wish to remain friends. So I respectfully stay away from the topic as there are topics that he stays away from knowing my history as a friend.

This is not a simple difference of political ideologies; no matter where you stand on the issue any morally aware individual finds these tactics shocking, evil and way over the top. Yet here you are, acting like it is the same old conversation as always. — Jeremiah

It is over the top, it is a tactic but it's not the murderous gangs that these folks are fleeing from either. There is a process, there has to be a process.

A process which does not have to include children hostages and tearing apart families. Just saying there has to be a "process" is not an argument at all as to why it has to be this process.

@ArguingWAristotleTiff

You've given a few arguments for your position but mostly you've danced around it with distractions. That suggests to me you're not really comfortable with it. My suggestion is try to abstract out the fact that these people are immigrants and imagine them as just people. Then ask yourself what kind of extreme circumstances would be necessary to treat anyone like that and if those circumstances really apply here. That's all I'd ask of you.

So how would these, you have listed above, impinge upon, say, a so-defined left leaning speaker?

Is it not the same for any invited speaker from anywhere? Is that not an example equality? Same rules for everyone? — raza

The question isn't about equality of punishment, it's about the punishment itself. And campus protests aren't exclusive to Left activists. Law enforcement protested the rapper, Common, successfully pulling him as a commencement speaker. Democratic politician Luis Gutierrez was shouted down by a conservative group while giving a speech. Conservatives at Texas Tech tried to ban Angela Davis from speaking at their school about mass incarceration. Fact is, the Right does their fair share of protesting speakers they don't like, to the point of disruption. Should these right winger protesters also be subjected to theoretical suspension or expulsion because they protest speakers who are likely relatively wealthy, and have alternative platforms with which to present their opinions?

Although, to correct you, not "immigrant" families. Immigrants do not cross borders illegally. — raza

No, these are immigrants regardless. And immigrants who announce themselves to border patrol agents, which is not illegal, have been separated from their children too.

Apparently this was an Obama policy that has yet to be altered which democrats have been invited to meet with the current administration in order to improve it.

Apparently celebrity democrat supporters also tweeted photos of cage-like areas holding undocumented border jumpers, but deleted their tweets once it was pointed out that the photos were taken in 2014. — raza

Did you simply do a five second google search? This is not an Obama or Democratic policy. The no-tolerance policy of separating children is a new policy put in place by the Trump administration. The "holding cells" from 2014, which I am certainly not defending, were for minors, generally teenagers, who crossed the borders themselves in order to escape cartel violence, poverty, abuse, or to unite with family in the States. Obama, in many respects, created perverse authoritarian immigration policies, providing him the epithet, "Deporter in Chief". While this is a legacy that liberals (and everyone) need to grapple with, it is nevertheless distinct from the Trump policy of separating families who cross the border, often times without a structured plan of reuniting them.

That policy was in affect during the Obama administration as well. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

This is simply incorrect. This policy was implemented by the Trump administration, and it can be reversed by the Trump administration. Trump, surprise surprise, is lying.

When we have people seeking political asylum, in the numbers that we are, what do you expect? For us to leave them out in the sweltering heat? Have you seen what the temps are here in the desert? Have you seen the Wal*Mart Super centers that these kids are residing in? Do you really equate the two? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

No fucking clue what point you are trying to drive here Tiff. I don't desire families to be left out in the "sweltering heat", nor do I desire families split up with parents being deported back to their home countries, while their young children are left in Walmart. Wise-up if you think these are the only two viable options for immigration.

You do know that these people presenting themselves for political asylum KNOW that they might be separated and are coached repeatedly throughout their journey? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Given that this is a new policy, no. This is simply false.

I have a hard time seeing that as being on the same level as "the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq". But please, do expand your correlation. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Actually, you are right here. I meant to correct myself earlier. This is the worst atrocity since the Trump administration's callous approach to the Puerto Rico hurricane. And that was the worst atrocity since Hurricane Katrina. No real "correlation" to draw from here, except the indifference Republican administrations seem to have for American minorities.

So the taxes we pay are going not to improve our schools, to help our homeless or those who are hungry. No, they are being absorbed by the 'tax' that non legal citizens are putting on our social structure. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

The economics is a little more complicated than that.

This is simply incorrect. This policy was implemented by the Trump administration, and it can be reversed by the Trump administration. Trump, surprise surprise, is lying. — Maw

You are correct in that the Trump administration "implemented" this policy but it was considered an option back in July of 2016 when we had tens of thousands of children being sent across the border without guardians. It was not "implemented" because of the damage that could be done to the children's psyche. I am not disputing the fact that in separating the children we are causing trauma. Just bear in mind that the parents entering illegally are aware of this policy. You are aware that they know what is happening at the entry points of our nations border, right?

When we have people seeking political asylum, in the numbers that we are, what do you expect? For us to leave them out in the sweltering heat? Have you seen what the temps are here in the desert? Have you seen the Wal*Mart Super centers that these kids are residing in? Do you really equate the two? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

No fucking clue what point you are trying to drive here Tiff. I don't desire families to be left out in the "sweltering heat", nor do I desire families split up with parents being deported back to their home countries, while their young children are left in Walmart. Wise-up if you think these are the only two viable options for immigration. — Maw

The fucking idea I am "on about" is that the average wait time is up to 20 days. Have you ever gotten a really bad sunburn from a day at the beach? It would be not just traumatic to the children to leave them out in the elements but it would be down right deadly for anyone. That is what I am "fucking" going on about.

You do know that these people presenting themselves for political asylum KNOW that they might be separated and are coached repeatedly throughout their journey? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Given that this is a new policy, no. This is simply false. — Maw

If you take the time to read the citations I listed you would see that the immigrants are well aware of the policy being implemented.

I imagine this is false as well:
"Separately, in another indication that Trump’s hardline actions and rhetoric have had limited effect, the administration said Wednesday that border arrests topped 50,000 for a third straight month in May.That is roughly three times what they were a year earlier and higher than the levels seen during much of the Obama administration."

I have a hard time seeing that as being on the same level as "the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq". But please, do expand your correlation. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Actually, you are right here. I meant to correct myself earlier. This is the worst atrocity since the Trump administration's callous approach to the Puerto Rico hurricane. And that was the worst atrocity since Hurricane Katrina. No real "correlation" to draw from here, except the indifference Republican administrations seem to have for American minorities. — Maw

There is no correlation Maw. One is an act of Mother Nature and the other is the choice of free will.

The economics is a little more complicated than that. — Srap Tasmaner

They are speaking about immigrants not illegal immigrants. The whole issue gets a LOT more complicated when it comes to the illegal immigrants.

For instance, if you are here illegally and your husband beats you and your children, who are you going to call? To call the authorities would be damning themselves in the process. What happens if you as an illegal immigrant are mugged and raped? Who do you turn to?

The crimes within the illegal immigrant communities would blow your mind if they were only reported.

@Maw @Baden @Srap Tasmaner
Please take 5 minutes to watch this video and try to understand the impact on our nation.
And I ask you, at what point does the necessity of self preservation come in?

For instance, if you are here illegally and your husband beats you and your children, who are you going to call? To call the authorities would be damning themselves in the process. What happens if you as an illegal immigrant are mugged and raped? Who do you turn to? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I'm confused. Are you describing here a taxpayer-funded service that illegal immigrants choose not to avail themselves of?

I'm confused. Are you describing here a taxpayer-funded service that illegal immigrants choose not to avail themselves of? — Srap Tasmaner

Yes I most certainly am.
I have never said I agreed with any of these policies, I am just trying to give a real idea of what is going on, seeing as I live in a state that a lot of this is happening in.