When you read history, the tendency is to think this can never happen again, but the unfortunate truth is that history is a wheel and not a straight line. People forget the lessons of the past and their lizard brain slowly pulls them back to those unethical judgments. The only solace I have here, is that with each turning of the wheel, if we push hard enough we can inch ourselves forward a bit.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you're defending this. It might be legally permissible to pursue illegal entry like this it's neither economical nor ethical and I'm suprised the latter does not already convince you this is wrong. — Benkei

Am I defending it or am I trying to explain what is happening on our border?

I think you are defending it.

Exactly, and we are doing essentially the same thing today by turning away asylum seekers - men, women and children who are trying to escape abuse, cartel violence etc., only to ship them back to where it is likely they will be killed. — Maw

Maw, if that was the makeup of all of those who are trying to seek asylum were what you suggest, it would be a lot easier. The problem is that mixed in with those seeking asylum are some that do not have good intentions. How do we figure out which is which when our entry ports are being overwhelmed?

I think you are delusional if you think the proportion of "bad intended" immigrants is anywhere near commensurate with asylum seekers. The fact is immigrants, documented or not, are less likely to commit crime. And if our entry ports are "being overwhelmed" then that's likely do to cuts in staff and closing entry ports.

In merely six weeks, nearly 2,000 children have been separated from their parents. The situation is already inhumane and unsustainable. If this practice isn't stopped immediately the crisis will grow exponentially to something near unfathomable.

In merely six weeks, nearly 2,000 children have been separated from their parents. The situation is already inhumane and unsustainable. If this practice isn't stopped immediately the crisis will grow exponentially to something near unfathomable. — Maw

What about the 65k unaccompanied minors that were taken in in 2014?

How are they being sustained?

What about — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Oh come on Tiff

Oh come on Tiff — Maw

Your moving me Maw, what can I say? The link to your immediate family changes things in my heart as I have a lot of family links to other topics and that matters greatly to me as well.

@Maw
The reply that is moving me has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page. Thank you for your contribution.

Ah well then I'm glad my words have made an impact.

Ah well then I'm glad my words have made an impact. — Maw

Me too. Thank you.

Border crossing doesnt have to be any more dangerous than taking a hike. Crossing illegally into the US from where I am is a 74$ cab ride followed by a 45 minutes hike across some farmlands and woods. Unless some gung-ho border patrol idiot decides to gun me down, or hell, I come across some badgers, then there is no danger whatsoever.

In my view the most disgusting thing is that Trump denies it's even his policy:

“I hate it. I hate the children being taken away. The Democrats have to change their law. That’s their law,”

(Trump)

Tells how spineless Trump is. And anyway, a mindless policy resulting just in a PR disaster in order to press for the ludicrous wall proposal. Which naturally won't work.

But Trump knows simply telling lies after lies continuosly, his supporters will believe him. Talk about alternative realities.

The U.S. government is, as a matter of policy, literally ripping children from the arms of their parents and putting them in fenced enclosures (which officials insist aren’t cages, oh no). The U.S. president is demanding that law enforcement stop investigating his associates and go after his political enemies instead. He has been insulting democratic allies while praising murderous dictators. And a global trade war seems increasingly likely.

What do these stories have in common? Obviously they’re all tied to the character of the man occupying the White House, surely the worst human being ever to hold his position. But there’s also a larger context, and it’s not just about Donald Trump. What we’re witnessing is a systematic rejection of longstanding American values — the values that actually made America great. — Paul Krugman

https://nyti.ms/2MBpTUn

Regarding borders and undocumented immigration - there is no easy answer to such problems, and they're only going to get worse. There are huge numbers of people who live in situations of desperate poverty in lawless regimes with no access to education or adequate means of livelihood. There are huge populations who are uprooted by war and political instability. There are entire countries where it is unconscionable to demand that people even should live - Afghanistan, Eritrea, and South Sudan spring to mind - and many others which are borderline. In the last several years there have been hundreds of thousands of undocumented arrivals in Europe, which is causing severe political problems and may yet bring down Angela Merkel (which Trump plainly is rooting for.)

In Australia, the conservative government elected in 2012 did actually stop the flow of boat arrivals (although there are still many visa overstays for example up to 200 African athletes and officials from the recent Commonwealth Games and others). There are still some pressing problems, not least what to do with about 1500 undocumented persons remaining after the drawbridge went up, who are living in New Guinea and Nauru in very poor conditions, and the common perception that the Australian government is catering to xenophobia and racism.

In any case, I can't see how these problems can be easily solved. Many of those seeking asylum are fleeing dreadful situations, but then I don't see how it's possible that hundreds and thousands, or even millions, of displaced people can simply be relocated to the developed world holus bolus. It doesn't seem feasible to me. I suppose the only possible conscionable attitude has to be massive foreign aid, enforced political stability and development in many of the countries of origin, a draconian clampdown on corruption and especially on arms trafficking into those trouble spots, and a willingness on the part of the developed world to share the benefits of globalism, liberalism and democracy. All of which has about zero chance of occurring - it was the kind of idealism that was behind the United Nations in the first place and with Trump at the helm, it's less likely than a settlement on Mars. So I'm not here with solutions or even opinions, other than that I think this is going to continue to be an enormous problem.

Exactly, and we are doing essentially the same thing today by turning away asylum seekers - men, women and children who are trying to escape abuse, cartel violence etc., only to ship them back to where it is likely they will be killed. — Maw

To expand on this point: this is essentially why deterrent-based policies are nearly always doomed to fail. Immigrants escaping the Northern Triangle are often faced with either rape and/or murder if they stay in their respective countries. Insofar as the US border policy provides a better fate than certain murder or rape, it will unlikely deter immigrants. Again, I will iterate that the new zero-tolerance policy has not been well communicated down into Latin America.

[Delete] @Baden

You are simply believing these people. Just wait a while and it will likely become apparent what a scam this Russia thing is.

It is slowly but surely imploding.

Unless some gung-ho border patrol idiot decides to gun me down, — Akanthinos

Sounds dangerous to me.

Does danger always imply something should be avoided? — Mr Phil O'Sophy

No. By all means, have a go and realize, maybe, some consequences.

This is why Trump wants the wall. If we had a wall across the southern border, real asylum seekers would need to enter by a front door. At the front door, children are not separated from honest parents.

The wall would also make it very hard for most adults and all small children to climb over. This would make it next impossible to separate the children from their parents, unless their parents scale the wall and leave them behind. The Democrats do not want this humane option, since they are all about optics and scams.

I heard somewhere that about 3 weeks ago, a top Democrats strategist on a talk show pointed out that the Democrats have not been able to harm Trump. Every full scale media scam they have pulled has not stuck or done damage. The only scam approach that showed some promise was an immigrant children angle. About 2 weeks later, by some strange ESP miracle the entire swamp media complex came to the same conclusion at the same time. It is an organized scam.

The left does not give a crap about children. These children are pawns to them. If they cared about the children they would discourage children from being brought to the border, until they could deal with this issue in court.

Instead, they encourage this, so they can point the finger of blame. Having children sitting in pens makes good political optics. If they could encourage even more children so they could create an overcrowded situation for even better optics, they would sacrifice even more children. If they cared, they would help with a short term solution that minimizes the children in pens, which is discourage them from coming at this time.

If they cared, they would help with a short term solution that minimizes the children in pens, which is discourage them from coming at this time. — wellwisher

Is separating children how Trump intends to discourage them from coming? Or is there some other way? If some other way then it's possible to discourage people from coming without separating children.

So I can turn your wild accusations around against you. If Trump cared, why is he doing it? It is within his power to reverse his policy decision.

And if he is separating children so as to discourage others from coming then he's the one using children as pawns (and clearly doesn't care about them).

Don't try to spin this as being a problem with the Democrats. This is entirely Trump. He's the one doing it.

There are consequences to everything in life. Whether or not I cross the road, good and bad things can happen. Sometimes life is about taking risks, especially when the prospects in avoiding the risk are di — Mr Phil O'Sophy

There are minimum legal rules about crossing the road, therefore lessor consequences than crossing the border illegally.

If some other way then it's possible to discourage people from coming without separating children. — Michael

I think it is quite simple to discourage this illegal border crossing. Send them all back with instructions to contact the American embassy in Mexico for further instructions on how to apply to immigrate.

Border crossing doesnt have to be any more dangerous than taking a hike. Crossing illegally into the US from where I am is a 74$ cab ride followed by a 45 minutes hike across some farmlands and woods. Unless some gung-ho border patrol idiot decides to gun me down, or hell, I come across some badgers, then there is no danger whatsoever. — Akanthinos

What port of entry is closest to you?

You are some random individual on the Internet spinning vague accusations of a major conspiracy, that apparently spans across 17 different civilian and government intelligence agencies AND Congress, all of which are targeting Donald Trump and this is all based on nothing. You have nothing at all; you have not provided one fact to support this wild claim of your. I am suppose to believe you? I don't think so.

that apparently spans across 17 different civilian and government intelligence agencies AND Congress — Jeremiah

"The intelligence community and the Senate Intelligence Committee agree on that."

So I ask again.
Have you seen this evidence?

No you have not.

This shows you are quite prepared to believe some evidence, some say they have, exists without you seeing for yourself that it exists.

Well I did read many of the the emails and I have some of the fake news data on my PC; I was reviewing it for possible analysis. What evidence have you seen to support your wild conspiracy theory?

It is not so much about viewing the evidence as they just have much more creditably than you do. What you are actually suggesting is just ridiculous. Conspiracy nuts are not generally worth listening to.

It is not so much about viewing the evidence as they just have much more creditably — Jeremiah

You're merely a believer. The evidence of this is clearly stated. You don't need to see the evidence. Please do not do jury duty. .