You are on a soapbox, preaching.

Very likely I do that a lot; however, I am also confident that you are reading what you want to read.

I have been doing forums like these for nearly 20 years and one thing I have learned is that in debate we tend to hear things with a touch of subjectivity, this is especially true for written debate. I don't sit here pounding at the keyboard in a flurry, each post actually receives a fair amount of thought and review.

I agree to disagree?

[Delete] @Baden

You've made some good points @Mr Phil O'Sophy, which are in keeping with both the spirit and letter of the guidelines. I appreciate that (although I understand the other views here too considering the context). Anyway, I think we can move back on-topic now.

However with regard to a discussion about immigration and illegal immigration it is not necessary that it be a pro-Trump vs an anti-Trump debate. Take whoever the president happens to be away the debate will always still remain. — raza

With the disasterous actions of Trump, Trump surely is in the center here. Trump isn't at all interested in an actual effective and functioning immigration policy and border control, he is ONLY interested how his actions are seen with his die-hard followers. It's not policy, it's only political rhetoric, which makes it's such disasterous "policy". As if the US government is controlled by tweets and speeches in rallies. Trump desperately wants the attention of his minority of supporters and what better is to anger his opposition with remarks as now with the latest:

"We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came."

Yeah, no cumbersome bureaucracy.

Hell with the "due process".

It fits extremely well the thinking of idiots that are Trump supporters, who haven't the clue or simply don't care at all how governments work. And Trump doesn't care or likely is incapable of understanding that implementing a tougher immigration policy in a democracy simply doesn't go like this.

ICE, responsible for the civil law approach, as a rule did not separate families with very young children due to the children's dependency on their parents. Now, children younger than five years old were separated from their parents some of them even unable to talk, that suggests ages below 3 and if my daughter is anything to go by: below 2 years old. I find it incredibly difficult to wrap my head around how people consider this morally acceptable; treating babies and toddlers as a means to deter illegal immigration.

Even if it were morally acceptable, there's no evidence criminal prosecution is effective. In fact, it was standard practise to follow the civil law route as it was more effective than criminal prosecution (which has a much higher burden of proof). The whole criminal court system was swamped as a result of the new policy, further underlining the change in policy was ill considered. — Benkei

Main objective with this policy is the shock value, to get the democrats to be up in arms and to create the image as if Trump would be fighting hard illegal immigration with his supporters. He cannot just come up with a tougher immigration policy that would be tolerated by the opposition (and likely would be something similar to Obama), he has to create a scandal, an uproar about it. Of course the reality is that this policy just creates a) a PR disaster, b) slight chaos to the whole process and c) likely demoralizes immigration officials. But all those things aren't at all important to Trump.

One really shouldn't treat Trump's remarks as if they would be policy openings of a normal functioning administration.

This was a very ambiguous comment my dear Posty; not directed in any particular direction lol. — Mr Phil O'Sophy

*despair*

And while we are all debating on how nice to be to each other. . . .

Trump goes back to lying about separating families, something which now seems like he and his goons actually may have planned as a way to discourage asylum seekers. And it is working as desperate parents are abandoning their hope of asylum for hope of getting their kids back faster. While on Twitter Trump advocates for denying these people due process of the law altogether.

Somehow, I just don't think the topic of being cordial with each is the pressing matter here. This is not about polarization, this is not about Dem or Rep, or about the Left or Right, if you stand with Trump on this one then you are standing with evil, it is that simple.

This is not making America great. America greatness is not about wealth, the job market, or the economy. It is our American spirit, and these policies are poison to that spirit.

This is the passage on our State of Liberty:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

We are suppose to be a beacon of hope, but Trump has turned us into child snatchers.

Detained Central American migrants who have been separated from their children have been told they can reunite with them if they agree to voluntarily deportations, The Texas Tribune reported Sunday.

The news outlet, citing a detained Honduran man and two immigration lawyers, reported that the migrants have been told they would be reunited with their children at an airport if they agree to sign off on deportations.

The Honduran man, who was not identified, said he gave up his asylum case and signed the paperwork in an effort to reunite with his 6-year-old daughter. He said he’s now trying to rescind his agreement and fight his case in court.

http://thehill.com/latino/393856-migrants-told-theyll-be-reunited-with-children-if-they-sign-voluntary-deportation

Coercion using child hostages.

Please stop trying to sell me. You said your part already and I am simply not interested. I have my own thoughts and views and I am not as clueless in this area as you seem to assume.

My goal is never to change a hardcore racist, that is generally a waste of time. They are not rational people, and using reason on them typically does nothing. My goal is to shame that behavior.

I'm doing philosophy — Mr Phil O'Sophy

Oh I am doing "philosophy" as well. :wink:

Secondly, please quote me where I suggest you are clueless with regards to the trump immigration situation? — Mr Phil O'Sophy

Not at all what I was talking about. What I meant was that I don't need you notes on person to person communicate. I have tons of professional training and experience in that area already. You are not telling me anything I have not already considered. You gave your take, I listened to it, and at that point you were just beating a dead horse. I can only assume that you keep repeating these sentiments because you assume your position in this matter is correct and I am need of your guidance. That is not the case.

Where did I say anything about hardcore racists? You raise a problem here, as that comment there, which follows this one: — Mr Phil O'Sophy

That was a general statement, and not targeted at you, which is why I didn't reference you or quote you in that post.

implies you think anyone who disagree's with us on this whole immigration ordeal and stands on the opposite side of the argument to us is somehow standing with evil and by proxy a hardcore racist. — Mr Phil O'Sophy

That sentence you just quoted refers to this specific aspect of child separation and not immigration as a whole. Just read a little closer, "if you stand with Trump on this one." You are seeing what you want to see, and you are reading too fast.

One of the fundamental reasons that racism is abhorrent is due to its generalising characteristic. By making the claims that you have, you have become just as guilty of generalising, and run the risk of becoming equivalent to the thing you decry so much; while also openly suggesting that none of them are "capable of reasoning", and that you're only intention here is to simply shame those who disagree with us, you show yourself as a completely unreasonable person. — Mr Phil O'Sophy

I won't say reason altogether, but when it comes to the matter of their racism, well they won't be racist if they were being reasonable about it. Unless you are trying to argue that racism is a rational position? So I am not really sure what you point was here. I think you have a habit of reading things without full consideration of the context in which they are presented.

Rest assured, I am quite calm as I write this ;) I just truly believe you have completely blinded yourself to your own inadequacies, and that you fail to take valid criticism from people whether they agree or disagree with you; I mean that with all due respect. — Mr Phil O'Sophy

Well, rest assured I am also quite calm in writing this and everything else I have written. I am fully aware I am a troll and have already admitted to be one. If you had read back a ways in the thread you would have noticed that. Personally, I think being a bit trollish at certain times is more effective and honestly you have not offered any evidence whatsoever to prove otherwise. You have a notion that your way is better, but really that is just an opinion.

Here is what I know from experience. Hardcore bigotry is not a result of reason, it is a result of emotions, as such trying to reason with them in that respects (read the words there and don't drag it out of context) is inefficient. Their position is founded in an emotional base and that is what they will understand and response the most to; however, when prejudice is ingrained deeply it is unlikely the efforts of a stranger will do much to dislodge it. What is important is to draw out their irrational position so that other people can see the many flaws, as the goal is not to change the hardcore, it is to display their hatred and ignorance, then set a disproving atmosphere of such behavior.

Also I fully admit to being intolerant of racism, because it is actually evil and destructive. I am also intolerant of child abuse and destroying families.

I thought some of these vids were funny...

It's the bigness...

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection has stopped referring adults with child for criminal prosecution. They claim that Trump's last EO makes it impossible to prosecute these people as children cannot be separated from their parents. So they are doing catch and release.

It is not likely the federal judge will grant a ruling to reverse Flores, and once more the Republican Congress is moving like molasses on immigration reform.

It is a logistical nightmare, because Trump and his goons are clueless idiots.

Pretty hilarious of Mike Pence to ask South American countries to respect our borders because America "respects their borders and sovereignty" given the history we've had of installing or backing dictatorships in various South American countries, including the Northern Triangle, where many immigrants are escaping gang violence.

I think we have to get used to the fact that there is a wide spectrum of opinion as well as opinion on civility here. I would never condemn any President of the United States as "a clueless idiot", which is why such characterizations are surprising to say the least, and not in my view civil discussion. We could discuss the Nazis as "clueless idiots" as well, but I do no think philosophical discourse is well served by this method.

Of course anyone is free to say what they like, however we are dealing with two languages here: the insulting, brash language, and the more formal one. Speaking different languages to each other is confusing and frustrating.

So here is my take: Every President has good and bad in them. There is the matter of character, but I believe that is a moot point in the current line of the last 20 presidents or so. I mean they have all done some good. And they have had some serious character flaws.

Then there is the matter of policy. As long as it is in line with the law of the land, and fulfils campaign promises, then it is to be admired. The election process may have been faulty, but here we are. By the way much of President Trump's promises are being blocked by Congress. Is this good or bad? Maybe it is democracy in action. Or just that people cannot agree. That does not mean the other side is evil, does it?

To paraphrase the Bible - "can anything good come out of Washington?" in the present administration? Yes I think it can. Some of it may be damaging, but all policies are damaging. For example the lack of universal health care will result in the deaths of some people. Now are we to call anyone who blocks universal health care a 'murderer'? Some people are used to stating their case in this way, I am not.

Policies give life, policies kill. Policies separate families, start wars, end wars and much more.
So criticize the policy.

If President Trump opened the borders there would be another rash of hysterical criticism that he is destroying the country. Dammed if you do or don’t.

Dammed if you do or don’t. — FreeEmotion

Which is a fine dinner but a poor breakfast. Do we make a world of progression or procession?

I would never condemn any President of the United States as "a clueless idiot", which is why such characterizations are surprising to say the least — FreeEmotion

Donald Trump just gloated on Twitter that Democrat Joe Crowley, who has been a representative of NY since 1999, lost the Democratic primary tonight. What he failed to realize, however, was that Crowley lost to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a democratic socialist. "Clueless idiot" seems like an apt epithet for Trump, just given the last 45 minutes.

Trump's only known form of communication is lying

Pretty hilarious of Mike Pence to ask South American countries to respect our borders because America "respects their borders and sovereignty" given the history we've had of installing or backing dictatorships in various South American countries, including the Northern Triangle, where many immigrants are escaping gang violence. — Maw

Yeah, and under the watch of every previous administration. Did you just wake up a little bit?

What did you think Hillary Clinton was going to carry on with?

And it is not as if Mexican governments have not been corrupt, along with so many other South American governments.

Oh no, did Raza miss the point again?

I would never condemn any President of the United States as "a clueless idiot" — FreeEmotion

However with regard to a discussion about immigration and illegal immigration it is not necessary that it be a pro-Trump vs an anti-Trump debate. Take whoever the president happens to be away the debate will always still remain. — raza

There is a two part solution to the illegal immigration problem. Since the Democrats are pro-breaking the law in terms of illegal aliens; sanctuary cities, should all America Citizens being giving a get out of jail free card, that they can use to break the law?

For example, I don't wish to pay taxes next year I can use my get out of jail free card. It can be used for anything, except murder and violent crimes, and has no expiration. It makes no sense to give this to people who are not citizens, but not to the citizens.

The second part is to place an added tax on all Democrats to cover the costs. The Democrats want illegal immigration and they claim to have a big heart. They will not mind covering the entire tab. If those on the right are officially out of the debt loop due to illegal immigration, they may be more tolerant, especially if they have their get out go jail free card. Those on the right would then be treated like VIP illegals, and have benefits. Everyone is happy!

This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone except the most ignorant of Trump supporters.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/27/north-korea-nuclear-reactor-upgrades-summit-pledges

"North Korea has continued to upgrade its only known nuclear reactor used to fuel its weapons program, satellite imagery has shown, despite ongoing negotiations with the US and a pledge to denuclearise.

Infrastructure improvements at the Yongbyon nuclear plant are “continuing at a rapid pace”, according to an analysis by monitoring group 38 North of commercial satellite images taken on 21 June."

should all America Citizens being giving a get out of jail free card, — wellwisher

You mean like Sherriff Arpaio who was actually convicted of a crime? Or all those others who benefited from Trump's political pardons?

I wanted to reply as well but simply couldn't figure out where to start.