• Ciceronianus
    3k
    I'm sure that all of you, like me, take the time during an otherwise busy day to contemplate the Trinity, the Triune God accepted by most Christian faiths. It may surprise you to learn that some have found it hard to accept or understand the Trinity, when its nature of course should be clear to all thanks to this helpful diagram:
    [/img]images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoQIT1EQfKzAml_fEremGc8WOnREu53rFUHwUGCjlTXx_vrP5b

    Be that as it may, it's interesting to contemplate not only its nature but its origins. The Trinity after all is not mentioned in the Bible as such. Why, then, is it part of Christian doctrine? It's not a concept which springs to mind and on its face seems contrary to the belief in One God.

    But while "the Trinity" isn't found in the Bible, other words are and their presence proved troublesome. The "Holy Ghost/Spirit" appears, and of course Jesus is referred to as the Son of God, and Jesus himself is inclined now and then to speak of his Father. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Ghost/Spirit when they're mentioned are distinguished, one from the other. Then, in Genesis, God has a tendency to refer to himself as "we" or "us."

    What, then, were the early Christian leaders to do? They could ignore these confusing references, or accept that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Ghost/Spirit were separate entities or come up with an explanation for the references which was, somehow, consistent with monotheism. Some early heretics, like Arian, chose the second option, and maintained that Jesus was not of the same substance as the Father. Although some of the early Christian emperors were Arian, his followers and others who were unorthodox were eventually duly quashed, such explanations of the Scriptural references being deemed inadequate. The Trinity was accepted as One God, but the Son, the Father and the Holy Ghost/Spirit each being Persons in their own right, and as separate Persons distinguished in function and purpose but all being God. Though separate Persons they may be, they're all of the same substance and so, in reality, One.

    If you're like me you'll think this is sorry stuff indeed, but Christian philosophers and apologists have been explaining the Trinity for centuries and much thought, time and effort have been expended, all to provide apost hoc rationale for the appearance of certain words in a Holy Book.

    Here we have a problem which arises whenever certain texts are considered unquestionable, and I'd venture to say the problem may apply to more than religious texts. But in all cases I suggest that when post hoc explanations are needed or used in order to explain or justify writings of any kind which purport to be more than evocative, the lack of clarity which requires or invites those explanations is a deficiency in the writings and their authors.
  • Hanover
    13k
    Am I to understand your position is that the triune God thing is just so much bullshit that arose from a poorly written but highly esteemed text?

    Not being of the Christian persuasion, such a conclusion doesn't trouble me, and actually seems obvious, since triune (where 3=1) is illogical and contradictory on its face.
  • Hanover
    13k
    Some early heretics, like Arian, chose the second option, and maintained that Jesus was not of the same substance as the Father.Ciceronianus the White

    Modern day heretics believe that the trinity are 3 entirely separate personages. The Mormon view: https://www.mormon.org/blog/do-mormons-believe-in-the-trinity
  • frank
    16k
    The Trinity after all is not mentioned in the Bible as such. Why, then, is it part of Christian doctrine? It's not a concept which springs to mind and on its face seems contrary to the belief in One God.Ciceronianus the White

    John 1:1 identifies Jesus' place in the trinity. Roman Christians very consciously adapted Christian images to Platonic themes. To say that early Christians should have had fundamentalist issues is anachronistic.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    But in all cases I suggest that when post hoc explanations are needed or used in order to explain or justify writings of any kind which purport to be more than evocative, the lack of clarity which requires or invites those explanations is a deficiency in the writings and their authors.Ciceronianus the White

    I think maybe your meaning here isn't as clear as maybe it could be. After all every explication of a text is after the text. Does your observation concern how meaning is established for texts? Is it bible criticism?

    As to "certain words in a Holy Book," it's good to keep in mind that the words in question never did appear in "the Holy Book." Parakletos transliterates the Greek word that we mutate to holy ghost. The usual translations are "advocate," "helper," "counselor." Maybe more literally, "the one called for." Holy ghost apparently comes from an old English translation of the Latin spiritus. Jesus always referred to himself as "the son of man," which is not at all "the "son of god." God as father is taken to be understood as the one who is interested in us as a father might be, not a statement of paternity.

    It may seem a mug's game to play with translations of words and terms that have already been long-since translated, but the translations themselves are a source of problems, notwithstanding when they were translated.

    And to be sure, what is the greater, the sum of all original philosophy, or the commentary on that same philosophy? A lack of clarity? Whenever was any philosopher so clear at first stroke that his writings forestalled the cottage industry of writers that would explain him to the rest of us?

    So, I think I understand what you meant. Be good enough to explain to me what I mean, so that I might understand that!
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Some Christian communities reject the Trinity, yes. I didn't say they all did. My understanding is Jehovah's Witnesses don't accept it, also.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Am I to understand your position is that the triune God thing is just so much bullshit that arose from a poorly written but highly esteemed text?Hanover
    I'm saying it was necessary for the early Church to explain the text, and this is how the orthodox faith did so.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    The Trinity was the primary subject of the First Council of Nicaea, presided over by Constantine. The dispute was between the followers of Arius, who were non-trinitarians, and those of Athanasius, who were trinitarians. Arius and his followers believed Jesus was created by God the Father, and not of the same substance as the Father. Jesus according to them did not always exist. John 1:1 notwithstanding. This was an issue for the Church from very early times.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Your right; I'm being less than clear myself.

    The problem I'm addressing (or trying to address, in any case) arises when the text in question is itself accorded a special significance, by its author or by others who reverence the text or the author of the text. That reverence is such that efforts are made to rationalize, to justify, to explain statements which appear in the text which appear inconsistent, dubious or subject to interpretations those who revere the text find objectionable or which are believed contrary to the intent of the author.

    The greater the effort, and the more elaborate the explanation, the more we're justified in questioning it and the status of the importance of the text itself (as opposed to the importance ascribed to it).

    It's quite possible that the versions of the Bible I'm familiar with are not good translations of the originals, but I think that the Holy Spirit is referred to as something special and distinct in itself in those versions.
  • frank
    16k
    I know who the Arians were. So?

    The trinity is Neoplatonic in origin. The scripture I directed you to identifies Jesus as the Logos.

    If it trips you out that early Christians didn't rely entirely on the Jewish Bible or Pauline writings to form their understanding, it would probably further blow your mind that the Franciscans relied on the writings of a Brit named Merlin. Yes, that Merlin.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Christianity was, and still is, a hodgepodge of borrowed religious and philosophical beliefs common in the ancient Mediterranean. I've seen the Trinity and the Logos referred to in John attributed to the Stoics. The Church made use of all it could in rationalizing its doctrines.

    But I think you mistake what was used in justifying the Trinity on a philosophical basis (and the use of the Logos) with what made it necessary or desirable for the Christian God to be a triune God. I doubt the Arian/Athanasian dispute arose because some Christians read Plotinus or that it was resolved at the First Council of Nicaea by consulting the works of Plotinus.
  • BC
    13.6k
    The MormonHanover

    It's official: "They" don't want to be called Mormons anymore. They want to be called "The Church" (Catholics will object), or The Church of Jesus Christ. So, if you see two guys dressed in dark suits and white shirts and ties walking down the street, they aren't Mormons--you insensitive lout. They are "two Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". You have to say the whole thing to be polite.

    This is only applicable to people who insist on using whatever pronouns the transgendered demand we use. The rest of us can continue to call them whatever we like.
  • BC
    13.6k
    As a former creed-saying Christian, I can honestly say I NEVER found the doctrine of the Trinity helpful in any way, shape, manner or form or even remotely explainable. Preachers don't like explaining it on Trinity Sunday, either. It's just one big headache.

    I guess I had Unitarian tendencies from the get go.
  • frank
    16k
    I've seen the Trinity and the Logos referred to in John attributed to the Stoics.Ciceronianus the White

    There was a Stoic Logos. Stoics also esteemed Plato, so they're part of the same stew.

    But I think you mistake what was used in justifying the Trinity on a philosophical basis (and the use of the Logos) with what made it necessary or desirable for the Christian God to be a triune GodCiceronianus the White

    It's Neoplatonic. The Father is the One, the son is the Logos, and the Holy Spirit is the Soul. Where did you think it came from?

    I doubt the Arian/Athanasian dispute arose because some Christians read Plotinus or that it was resolved at the First Council of Nicaea by consulting the works of Plotinus.Ciceronianus the White

    Christians were taking over Platonism before Plotinus. They continued through his lifetime and continued on afterward. You should read a history of the era. You'd find it fascinating considering your interest in Rome. If you'd like a superficial review of Neoplatonism, I know of some good youtube videos.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Well, if you believe the early Christians came to believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as the Trinity solely because they read Plato, you're welcome to do so. I think it's more likely that they looked to the Bible first, then used pagan philosophy and religion to support it as needed. No doubt the various pagan trinities contributed to the Christian Trinity as well, e.g., the Capitoline Triad of Zeus, Juno and Minerva, or the Greek Triad of Zeus, Hades and Helios-Serapis.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Preachers don't like explaining it on Trinity Sunday, either. It's just one big headache.Bitter Crank

    Years ago I listened to a priest explain the Trinity to his congregation by comparing it to a ham sandwich.
  • frank
    16k
    I think it's more likely that they looked to the Bible first, then used pagan philosophy and religion to support it as needed.Ciceronianus the White

    Scholars disagree. But you think Christians found a basis for a trinity in the Old Testament? If not, what Bible are you talking about?
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    This is what happens when philosophical literalists meddle with religion and try to organise it. Zen Buddhists are smart enough to head them off at the pass with the soundless sound of one hand clapping.

    Personally, I believe in love and justice though I am confident they do not exist. So call me irrational, and snort in derision.
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    Peter Geach, who was Elizabeth Anscombe's husband and a very fine logician-philosopher, developed his thesis of relative identity in order to account for the seeming contradiction pictured in the OP. I don't think the thesis is correct, or that the inherent contradiction pictured in the OP can be rationally resolved, but there nevertheless is an insight embodied into Geach's thesis of relative identity. This insight is salvaged by Wiggins' thesis of the sortal dependency of identity, as expounded in his brilliant Sameness and Substance (and its most recent edition: Sameness and Substance: Renewed)
  • Rank Amateur
    1.5k
    This is what happens when philosophical literalists meddle with religion and try to organise it. Zen Buddhists are smart enough to head them off at the pass with the soundless sound of one hand clapping.

    Personally, I believe in love and justice though I am confident they do not exist. So call me irrational, and snort in derision.
    unenlightened

    Agree - the trinity is a matter of faith. Faith, other than reasons for its existence are not matters of philosophy. There are no rational arguments for or against faith. The only question should be, is what I believe by faith in conflict with truth or reason.

    In this case, the base question is, as it so often is, is belief in God reasonable. If so, and your answer is yes, than by faith there is no reason not to believe in His trinity.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    In this case, the base question is, as it so often is, is belief in God reasonable. If so, and your answer is yes, than by faith there is no reason not to believe in His trinity.Rank Amateur

    You mistake my claim, which is that the spiritual is unreasonable. In matters of fact, truth and reason are king and queen; in matters of faith, beauty and goodness. What extraordinary folly to be reasoning whether there is one love or three or three in one - there is no love, therefore one must believe in it.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    I can tell you what in the Old Testament is referred to in support of the Trinity, from what I've read. They're consideredallusions to the Trinity, i.e. lesser indications than what you can find in the New Testament.

    As noted in the OP, God's use of "we" and "us" in Genesis is taken to be an indication that God is more than one Person. (Genesis 1:26-27); likewise in reference to the Tower of Babel, when God says "Let us go down and confuse their language." The reference to "God" and "the Spirit of God" in Genesis 1:2 is claimed to support a "plural" deity, as is the word "Elohim" which some claim is a plural noun. Then it's noted God makes man in what he calls "our" image (make and female he makes them; two different kinds of man). It's claimed that God appeared to Abraham in the form of three men, indicating God is triune (I know the three men are called "angels" in some tellings).
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Zen Buddhists are smart enough to head them off at the pass with the soundless sound of one hand clapping.unenlightened

    In fact, I can clap with one hand, and make a sound when doing so. Something to do with the length of my fingers, I think. So, I know what the sound of one hand clapping is, and can produce that sound at will, thus confounding Zen Buddhists everywhere.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    This I think would be an example of an effort to explain a text which seems inconsistent or unreasonable but assumed to be relating a truth. It's a kind of salvage operation.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    I'd clap you in irons for that remark if I could. But it's a fine example of weaselling, which is what I thought you were objecting to.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    I'd clap you in irons for that remark if I couldunenlightened
    What is the sound of you clapping me in irons with one hand?
  • Pierre-Normand
    2.4k
    This I think would be an example of an effort to explain a text which seems inconsistent or unreasonable but assumed to be relating a truth. It's a kind of salvage operation.Ciceronianus the White

    That might be a fair characterization of Geach's motivation for coming up with the thesis of the relativity of identity. But that would be a bad mischaracterization of Wiggins' thesis of the sortal dependency of identity since the purpose of the latter was to disentangle the philosophical insight embodied in Geach's flawed thesis from Geach's own motivation to salvage a particular Christian doctrine.
  • andrewk
    2.1k
    I can do that too. I thought of salvaging the koan by changing it to the sound of one finger clicking. But then I found I can still make a very faint sound by striking the tip of my middle finger against the flesh of my palm. I wonder if that counts as clicking. I can make an even fainter sound by striking my ring finger. But my hearing is not acute enough to pick up the sound when I do it with my little or index finger or thumb.
  • Baden
    16.4k


    The sound of one heel clicking is unassailable.
  • All sight
    333
    Not saying that this is the same thing, but I'll give an analogous example. With respect to an object, or thing in the world, we have three necessary components which are distinct, and separate in one sense, but inseparable in another. That is, we have the word, or the symbol, or sign of it. We have the object itself, and we have a cipher, or our personal attempts to crack the code. All of which are practically inseparable, but clearly distinct.
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