OK, I'll see what I can do. Consider the existence of an object. It has a temporal extension past and future. From this perspective the present is irrelevant, the object has a period of time when it exists, and so be it. But if you consider changes to the object, they only occur at the present, as time is passing. We might say that changes occurred in the past, and will occur in the future, but they only actually occur at the present.as time is passing. So the present presents us with a certain discontinuity of existence of the object if we allow that change occurs at the present.

That's one way of looking at the present, as the discontinuity of existence. Another way is to look at it as the time in which we (subjects) exist. This separates us from objects which extend into past and future, allowing the concept of immortality as something which doesn't partake in past or future, but is always at the present. This makes the present a continuity of existence.

So we have two distinct ways of thinking of the present, one is as the time when change to physical objects occurs, and the other is as something distinct from past and future. Since we associate the self, with being at the present, these two ways give two distinct approaches to self-identification. One is as a source of change in the physical world, and the other is as something distinct from the physical world. The problem is that there seems to be reality to both perspectives, so it would appear necessary to establish compatibility between them. To establish compatibility requires recognizing, in a sense, that they are both wrong. So we need to dismiss them both in order to come up with a real representation of the self. — Metaphysician Undercover

:up: Very well put. Thanks!

;;;

Yes absolutely. I have had a recurring dream since childhood that is absolutely incapable of description or concept.

hmmmh. Idk about that. That reminds me of Freud's censor, which I don't know that I agree with.

It's easier to see this process if we use exaggerated examples. You're walking down the hall and someone sets off a firecracker behind you. This could be a mortal threat, so your mind pushes the thinker and thinking aside, no time for that right now.
5d — Jake

I have had a dream since before I can remember that absolutely has no concept. It is absolutely impossible to derive any conceptualizable information from it. I have tried.

@Janus or perhaps you have heard of DMT or dimethyltriptamine. It is an endogenous chemical in the human body that functions as a pseudoneurotransmitter , and it is also one of the most potent psychedelic, hallucinogenic substances in the world. It is found in just about every mammal, if not every organism.

Native Amazonians for thousands of years have been brewing it in a drink called Ayahuasca. This drink is spiritual and provides an experience absolutely indescribable and free from concept. How these primitive people knew that if you mix Mimosa Hostilis rootbark with another plant, I forget which, you get a form of DMT metabolizable in the human gut, I have absolutely no idea... It has been said that this chemical, taken in a drug form, causes ego-dissociation, powerful hallucinations, the experience of God, self-transformation, contact with spirits\ancestors, etc. Etc. Ayahuasca or DMT also can treat drug addiction, PTSD, depression and rape victims, as well as cancer patients fearing death, just as LSD and MDMA can. But this information is repressed, of course. The active chemic in 'magic mushrooms' is 4-HO-DMT ( psilocin ).

There is a good book called Food Of The Gods by Terence McKenna about this subject.

There are indeed experiences native to the human of which are absolutely incapable of description and concept. This is what Carl Jung knew. And he formed his whole analytical psychology based on this.

And BTW, I have taken DMT. It is absolutely indescribable and is one of the most interesting and powerful things I have ever experienced in my life.

"In the beginning was the deed."

So, there are no images, colours, tones, sounds, sensations or feelings involved? I don't see how it could be counted an experience.

I accept that there are experiences which cannot be adequately verbalised, but that is a different matter; the experience is never identical with what is said about it.

I have experimented extensively with hallucinogens including LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin, DMT and Sylvia divinorum, and I have had the most bizarre experiences, but never one about which nothing all could be said. I have also experienced very strange dreams most of my life, so I think I am familiar with the kinds of experience you allude to. I have also read Terence Mckenna.

I have experimented extensively with hallucinogens including LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin, DMT and Sylvia divinorum, and I have had the most bizarre experiences, but never one about which nothing all could be said. — Janus

Do you think to elicit self-induced psychotic states of mind are beneficial to disidentification? Psychosis is a form of disidentification from thought altogether. And, if I may ask, what have hallucinogens taught you? Have they been a net positive or negative for you?

I don't count experiences engendered by psychotropics as "psychotic" , and as to the cost/ benefit analysis, I have no way to quantify it.

I don't count experiences engendered by psychotropics as "psychotic" — Janus

I was speaking from my sole personal experience with psilocybin. It triggered a psychotic state in me. Though the setting wasn't right. I guess it wasn't for me or my makeup.

Yes, there are colors and sounds and all sorts of sensations in this dream; however, the dream also has aspects that I cannot put into words. Such a compilation would lack the necessary components that would amount to a realistic representation.

It goes like this.

'I' am flying through something. But I'm not really flying. It is like I am a part of all these others just like me and 'we' are flying around each other in this strange dimension. Time is absolutely nonexistent in the form, for instance, required for me to write this. It is more-so a temporal flux, as well as a physical one. I am aware that there are other beings like me and there are colors and shapes all around me. There are all sorts of emotions. Mostly fear. Then it becomes extremely terrifying. And I become on this 'path', away from all the others, I am not sure where they went. Its like the whole world twists into this other dimension and I am on a path gain speed toward another being just like me. And this other being is coming toward me. And I cannot escape. I can feel the other being's fear and we go faster and faster until I can see the other right in front of me and we are both terrified and confused and wondering why?! But there are no words. It is not human. It is something much different I wish I could explain it. And right when we collide I always wake up in sweat and in panic. One time I woke up screaming when I was 17 calling for my sister. I have even woke up and had the feelings, sensations and visions still going on looking at my hands and the new world I am in, and the pillows and the covers always feel so intense but intense to a very uncomfortable and almost painful degree. But trying to put all of this into words I can barely even begin to try and tell you what it is like.

That is awesome by the way, that you have experience with psychedelic compounds. I, like McKenna, believe it is our birthright to explore these natural chemicals which provide a means of exploring the world and consciousness like nothing else. And psychedelic experiences are so profound. These experiences are all I have when I think of perhaps something 'greater' or more than the vague seeming that is understanding and knowing this existence. I have yet to not be astonished by these experiences, especially with psilocin/psilocybin (psilocybin breaks down into psilocin in the body) , LSD and DMT. I have not tried mescaline or salvia, but I would like to.

My last experience with LSD was very bad though. I think I know the factors of why it was so harsh and bad, but it was very revealing. Perhaps it was too revealing. It showed me the horrors of capitalistic machinery, conditioning associated with this, modern economics and infrastructure and nihilism. I felt helplessly confused in this trip. I haven't taken a psychedelic since, and that was a year and a half ago.

I became interested in psychedelics when I realized that it was the closest I could get to the dream I have had since I was a toddler, or maybe before. Sometimes I wonder if this dream was a dream I had in the womb, representations of that experience? Or maybe remnants of experiences prior in some fetal form? I am not sure. But if you take LSD or mushrooms, do it in the dark and close your eyes and that is the closest I can get to the dream. Though... The dream is much much more. The human mind is extraordinary.

@Posty McPostface

some would say disidentification or ego dissociation or ego disillusionment even... Is a necessary experience for understanding oneself and ones strange place in this universe. I call it deconditioning. The unfortunate thing about this is it lacks polity. It lacks all the components of a civilization set on materialism, labor, resource management, etc. It stands in stark contrast to modern man...

I like Carl Jung's essay entitled 'Archaic Man.'

I think the primitive way of life was probably the prototype of humanity, and nowadays there are serious problems the result of which is absolutely new, and potentially tremendously catastrophic.

Psychedelic experiences... It all depends on so many factors. The rule of thumb is to be in a healthy state of mind before going into one. This is a good environment, positive outlook, etc... But this is not a have-to. I have gone into an experience depressed and then felt emotions that one is incapable of feeling off of the psychedelic. The psychedelic takes you on an adventure. The biggest rule is to LET GO. LET GO OF EVERYTHING. and then let your mind take its course to wherever. Fighting it is what causes 'bad trips.' Personally the most revealing psychedelics are LSD, DMT and mushrooms (excluding amanita muscaria).

I take back one thing I said. In terms of thinking about something 'greater' than the mundane philosophical... Which is great at times and extremely frustrating at others... Is the experience of love, art, creation, poetry and music... What I call the pneuma, the 'spirit of life' present in music, art, poetry, creativity and love... Something deeper than words could ever go. And the source of so much joy that seems absolutely unfounded in any logical sequence of thought. It is unbounded.

Psychedelics can reach this too.

Psychedelic experiences... It all depends on so many factors. The rule of thumb is to be in a healthy state of mind before going into one. — Blue Lux

True.

This is a good environment, positive outlook, etc... — Blue Lux

Yeah, set and setting comes to mind.

The psychedelic takes you on an adventure. — Blue Lux

I just like staying home, so, yeah.

Fighting it is what causes 'bad trips.' — Blue Lux

How do you avoid fighting? Could this be why I experienced a psychotic state or is it just my genes in play?

Personally the most revealing psychedelics are LSD, DMT and mushrooms (excluding amanita muscaria). — Blue Lux

I just ordered some 1P-LSD to microdose with. Hope it works out. :blush:

As they say, set and setting are extremely important. But it's probably also true that psychedelics are not suitable for some people ( and this is by no means to say I am convinced you are one of those Posty; that is something you must decide according to your own experience). I myself have always been wary of them; whilst also taking them many, many times during two mains phases of experimentation.

And I have experienced bad trips, absolutely hellish trips, in fact; although for me in my first phase (!7-20 years old) of experimentation each trip usually started out like that and then came good (very good!) later. In my second phase (46-48 years old) I found that I always had one foot in heaven and the other in hell. I haven't taken them since (except for the odd MDMA) (now 65 years old). Not sure if I will again...probably will though...I'm not in any rush because it is not only intriguing but scary, too...

And I have experienced bad trips, absolutely hellish trips, in fact; although for me in my first phase (!7-20 years old) of experimentation each trip usually started out like that and then came good (very good!) later. — Janus

Holy shit, man. Tripping at 7.

Anyway, I used to be schooled by a private tutor that I've been keeping in contact with and he told me I need to try some Peyote or Ayahuasca. I've been stuck with this idea that I'm broken and schizophrenic (which is my official diagnosis). Here's what happened that changed my mind. I found an antipsychotic (Haldol) that doesn't target the 5-HT2A receptor at low enough doses, which is responsible for the psychedelia. I'm hoping I can limit the extent of the drug to induce psychosis while enjoying the experience. I can't understate how badly I want to have a good trip. I've read literature and the overabundance of online reports of amazing experiences and the long-term persistent change in personality; but, just have been somewhat apprehensive to break myself again.

Anyway, I hope this time will be different by modulating the drug as to not be able to cause psychosis, as these drugs typically tend to do that in an uncontrolled manner.

Holy shit, man. Tripping at 7. — Posty McPostface

Ha, that's 17 Posty.

Ha, that's 17 Posty. — Janus

Phew, you had me scared there.

In many instances 'depression' can be willful in that its persistence is willed or is in accordance with the will and the self. The depressive, complaining about his symptoms and not engaging with them is akin to the fat person who insists that their fat is genetic or is someone else's fault (sometimes it is, mostly it isn't).

At the outset of this exploration into your depression, and depression in general you equivocated upon a question that strikes at the heart of human self identity.

If you wish to find the source of your depression. I suggest you begin at the heart of the matter. A logical or philosophical approach to the symptoms can then, and only then, be formulated.

M

At the outset of this exploration into your depression, and depression in general you equivocated upon a question that strikes at the heart of human self identity. — Marcus de Brun

What if I said, that consistency in formulating one's identity (having a narrative) is of supreme importance to an individual. What do you then say to someone that is depressed? Snap out of it?

How does a patient gain insight into their own conundrum of labelling themselves as depressed, or on the other hand experiencing the symptoms of depression without having them in a self-fulfilling prophecy commit a confirmation bias about their own health?

What if I said, that consistency in formulating one's identity (having a narrative) is of supreme importance to an individual. What do you then say to someone that is depressed? Snap out of it? — Posty McPostface

Identity must precede the narrative; if the narrative is to have any meaning outside the 'endless loop' scenario.

So the short answer is No, don't 'snap out of it'.

Snap into it.

M

Identity must precede the narrative; if the narrative is to have any meaning outside the 'endless loop' scenario. — Marcus de Brun

Yes, but I am depressed.

Snap into it. — Marcus de Brun

How??

How?? — Posty McPostface

By dealing with the initial central equivocation first, and by then constructing an honest self narrative on that basis.

M

By dealing with the initial central equivocation first, and by then constructing an honest self narrative on that basis. — Marcus de Brun

What equivocation is that?

Sorry that you have to spell it out, here...

Sorry but its not going to come from me.

I am neither your jailer nor your judge. :)

You have posted it in a conversation with me on this topic. You can find it there if you have no luck with introspection.

M

Sorry but its not going to come from me.

I am neither your jailer nor your judge. :)

You have posted it in a conversation with me on this topic. You can find it there if you have no luck with introspection.

M — Marcus de Brun

:ok:

:ok:

I hope that is an indication that the offending digit is soon to be removed from the place of little sunshine.

M

I hope that is an indication that the offending digit is soon to be removed from the place of little sunshine. — Marcus de Brun

Here's me hoping. Maybe the black dog will find some bone to chew on.

But, in all seriousness, I don't feel depressed; but, I know I am. What a strange predicament.

your back on the loop again.

debrun out :yawn: