Might be nice if you defined morality, at least for your current purpose.There is simply no secular basis for morality. — Ram
VagabondSpectre
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I could make a parodic post just like this one that insults theists, shows videos of theists saying inconsistent things with gotchya type arguments (and then cuts them off), and make assertions like "theistic morality is ALL subjective because it is simply made up from scratch, which is why different religions believe in different "objective" moralities".
How would you respond?
You would probably argue that your own religion is the objectively true religion, that there is plenty of "evidence" supporting it, and that anyone who insults your personal worldview is just biased hater who doesn't actually understand it.
If you would actually like to have an argument about moral foundations, I would be quite interested.
To begin, try and submit a single universally true and objective moral claim, and then I'll actually have something to attack.
If you would like something to actually attack, then I submit that the foundation for objective morality is shared values. When two individuals share common goals and values (or have goals which do not interfere with each other), then they can come to objectively beneficial moral agreements that preserve and promote those values. The desire to go on living is a nearly universally shared value among humans, and is one of the most important points of negotiation in our moral agreements. The desire to be free from oppression, and the freedom to pursue happiness are two other nearly universally shared human values, and like it or not, this is where morality ought to come from. — VagabondSpectre
I've found incredible rhetorical and persuasive success by appealing to NUMVs (nearly universal moral values). To continue living, to be free from oppression, to be free to pursue happiness, etc... Moral agreements between agents with shared moral values are objectively true in the same sense that a good strategy is objectively likely to lead to victory. — VagabondSpectre
Might be nice if you defined morality, at least for your current purpose.
Most of the world's religions hold at least a few ethical constraints in common. And of those, most predate current religions. How do you account for that? I suggest you think before you answer. — tim wood
Bit of a troll post, but sure I'll bite, there is no objective morality. And inventing a basis doesn't make it any more objective.
So where does that leave us? That people will have different opinions on morals, and that we need to find ways to agree on certain moral rules as a community, so we can get along.
But theists will presumably have a problem with this because they know objective morality, and so that is above any agreement on the matter. (This isn't the case by the way if you know a bit about Christian history and how much popes have changed 'objective morality' over the years.)
You probably think this is a good argument, but from the perspective of an atheist its actually the opposite, because you deny anyone to have a different opinion then the subjective one you have... and refuse to enter into dialogue about what we can agree on as a community. — ChatteringMonkey
That contradicts your hypothesis that religion is necessary to ground morality. — Janus
Knowledge of right and wrong are innate. Humans are born knowing right and wrong. — Ram
That contradicts your hypothesis that religion is necessary to ground morality. — Janus
I cannot see how it is possible to "believe in God" without possessing linguistic ability; so humans cannot be born believing in God. Maybe it could be argued that humans are born with an innate sense of the divine or of oneness, but that is something else. Also, "believing in God" takes many forms.
You say babies are "born pure and then corrupted". In one sense that may be true. In another sense, it could be said that babies are born utterly selfish and then (hopefully) civilized such that they become capable of considering others. — Janus
Islam is against adultery, lying, stealing, sex outside of marriage, etc.
Christianity too. — Ram
Whether you are Muslim or Christian- you should be willing to die for what you believe in. My hope is that Allah will grant me a good death. For example, if I die defending my family or if I die while in Mecca- these are good deaths. I hope fervently for a good death. — Ram
For a Christian, for example- suppose the AntiChrist described in Revelation arrives and Christians have to die for their religion...... as a Muslim or a Christian, you should be willing to die for your beliefs. Therefore life is not the ultimate goal. You should not be afraid of death. — Ram
I don't find the thing about continuing living- I don't find it universal or even desirable. At any moment's notice, you (if you believe in God) should be prepared to give your life for what you believe. — Ram
Happiness? I don't care about happiness. Happiness is in Jannah (heaven). — Ram
Forget happiness and self-preservation. It is destined that we shall die and happiness in this world is not the goal. The goal is Jannah- to attain Paradise. — Ram
I doubt you have the same understanding of oppression I have. We are not driven by the same motives. I want to serve Allah, attain Jannah and receive Allah's forgiveness for my sins.
We are simply not driven by the same considerations- totally different worlds. I might use periods at the end of my sentences and you might do the same and we both might have two legs and two arms but we are very different and we are not driven by the same values and presuppositions. — Ram
A moral life is the most pleasurable, most enjoyable, contains the greatest longevity, the least likelihood of disease, illness, depression, the best sex, the tastiest foods, the greatest books and the best of friendships.... and it even avoids the immoral necessity for personal self serving God constructs.
The moral life is entirely secular. — Marcus de Brun
In so far as adultery is a form of lying, I also condemn it, — VagabondSpectre
You provide no argument just more assertion. I see no reason to take your word for it. Also, you should be careful as the moderators do not consider this site should be allowed to be used as an organ for proselytizing, which seems to be what you are doing. — Janus
Such is life. — Ram
A moral life is the most pleasurable, most enjoyable, contains the greatest longevity, the least likelihood of disease, illness, depression, the best sex, the tastiest foods, the greatest books and the best of friendships.... and it even avoids the immoral necessity for personal self serving God constructs.
The moral life is entirely secular. — Marcus de Brun
I am afraid of death though — VagabondSpectre
"Be prepared to accept death at any moment because Janna is the goal", to me, sounds delusional, and you've completely lost me... — VagabondSpectre
You don't want to be happy? You don't want to go on living? You
don't want to be free from oppression?
How pernicious must a set of beliefs be to get you to embrace death and apocalypse over admitting that there is value in this life beyond being a test for an imaginary next life? — VagabondSpectre
So when you enter Mecca you hope that you suddenly die by accident?
Why?
Free ticket to paradise?
Do you hope that your family is attacked so that you can die defending them? — VagabondSpectre
You sure do seem to care about happiness then... If Jannah doesn't exist and instead of paradise you just get destroyed, are you still so willing to accept an early death? Please be honest with yourself. — VagabondSpectre
The Abrahamic religions might agree on the basic and easy stuff, but what's left has been enough to turn each of them into disparate and factions who all fight among themselves. Meanwhile the world isn;t getting any better... — VagabondSpectre
In so far as adultery is a form of lying, I also condemn it, but what of a woman who has fled from/escaped an arranged marriage and found love elsewhere? Technically she would still be married to her former husband and would be committing adultery. Should she return to her original husband because of the sacredness of marital unions? — VagabondSpectre
Is it always a sin to lie? What if you have to tell a lie in order to save a life? — VagabondSpectre
Is it a sin to steal for basic sustenance? Should a parent be punished if stealing food was their only means of feeding their children? — VagabondSpectre
The truth of whether or not it is moral to do these things changes with circumstance, but I understand the gist of these laws. Unless there is good justification to do otherwise, we should not be lying to, stealing from, or killing one another. But these aren't hard-to-come-by moral positions; everybody already intuitively understands that being free from theft, deception, and murder is desirable; we never needed religion to convince people that we should have a society where theft and murder are forbidden, even a child can figure that out. — VagabondSpectre
Perhaps, but such is not philosophy. You are expected to offer argumentation to support your beliefs. — Akanthinos
What religions disagree about is much more interesting and much more consequential. Do we pray to Jesus or don't we? What day is Sabbath? Which religion should control the holy sites in Palestine/Israel? Even within any one of the three Abrahamic faiths there is widespread disagreement about how we should live. Is scripture literal or metaphor? Should we be paying tithes to a central establishment or is faith about having a personal relationship with god? Should we each make our own interpretations of scripture or should we listen to the religious authority figures who know better?
The above examples apply to all three religions but here are some more specific ones: Do we do as the prophet did or do we do what they prophet said to do? (and if so, what did the prophet actually do, and what did he actually tell us to do?). Who is the rightful Caliph? Do we really need the pope and does the communal wine/wafer actually turn into the blood and flesh of Christ? With what level of orthodoxy does one need to uphold the old laws? Is it still a sin to pick up sticks on the sabbath "to do work"?. Is pressing a button an equivalent to work and can we get around that law with some other mechanism? What should the penalty for heresy/apostasy be? Is ex-communication necessary? or worse? — VagabondSpectre
I provided some argument for my belief that children cannot be born believing in God; that is the difference between your approach and mine.
If your proselytizing is a problem for the mods you will likely be banned. If that didn't matter to you then I guess it just wouldn't matter. — Janus
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