You do realize that Berkeley is proposing a form of naive realism? He is actually giving you theory to justify your belief and refute Locke's veil of perception.As you should expect, given that I'm a naive realist. Another theory of perception would have to be well-supported, have good reasons for belief, be plausible etc. for me to change my view. I won't be holding my breath. — Terrapin Station
You do realize that Berkeley is proposing a form of naive realism? — Jamesk
Terrapin Station Rocks are just ideas, man~
No one better give me grief about this — MindForged
Come on, now. You can't be so unintelligent that you believe that not agreeing with something amounts to not understanding it, can you? — Terrapin Station
Others reading his works and debating would all be ideas in his mind.The basic problem most people have, is that they imagine that what Berkeley is arguing means that ‘the world is all in my mind’. But if that were all he was saying, then nobody would have read his works, and there would be no debate — Wayfarer
This explanation isn't any better. All there are are ideas, not independently existing objects, like you and your internet forum post. "Your ideas" (your forum posts) only exist because they are my ideas.His argument could be better paraphrased as ‘all our knowledge of the world comprises ideas’ - that what we take to be independently existing objects are in actual fact ideas in the (not necessarily my) mind. It does sound incredible, but it is exactly that incredulity that Hylas, the sceptic in his dialogue, brings to Philonious, only to see all his apparently sensible objections refuted. — Wayfarer
Are you going to engage in a constructive argument or are you happy with just trolling? — Jamesk
When it's a sound argument, and one disagrees, it is obviously a matter of misunderstanding. — Metaphysician Undercover
God acts as the guarantor of all ideas. — Jamesk
Yeah, positing a magic genie makes the view a lot more reasonable. — Terrapin Station
Your explanation of "mind" is inconsistent. We can't be mind independent if we are part of another mind.You miss the point. God acts as the guarantor of all ideas. Objects exist independent of YOUR mind because they are always held in Gods mind.Again, intelligent beings do exist as minds / spirits and are mind independent. — Jamesk
positing a material substratum — Jamesk
You are positing their mind independent existence. — Jamesk
You observe their mind-independent existence.
Aside from that, mind is material too. — Terrapin Station
No. That's what you implied when you said:All that exist are minds and ideas. The metaphysics of our minds and of God are beyond our understanding but Berkeley doesn't seem to imply that our minds are 'parts' of Gods mind. — Jamesk
Objects exist independent of YOUR mind because they are always held in Gods mind. — Jamesk
Yet we do have ideas about other minds and of God's.Unfortunately because we can only know ideas, and minds are not ideas, we cannot really know anything about minds. We cannot form an idea of either our own minds or of God's. — Jamesk
Firstly observation and perception are mind dependent. A mind must be present in order to do these things. Mind independent perception is a contradiction in terms. — Jamesk
The same old idiotic confusion from poster after poster — Terrapin Station
James K is actually just repeating what Berkeley argued, not that it is true. Folks are just trying to be charitable to Berkeley. — Nils Loc
Attempts to base the reality of the physical world on appearances has traditionally led into problems. One example being that of Berkley’s need for an all-perceiving ego. — javra
You do realize that Berkeley is proposing a form of naive realism? — Jamesk
This is so simple that a toddler should be able to understand it, yet poster after poster here is confused (yet arrogant about it). — Terrapin Station
"The world is my idea" — this is a truth which holds good for everything that lives and knows, though man alone can bring it into reflective and abstract consciousness. If he really does this, he has attained to philosophical wisdom. It then becomes clear and certain to him that what he knows is not a sun and an earth, but only an eye that sees a sun^ a hand that feels an earth ; that the world which surrounds him is there only as idea, i.e., only in relation to something else, the consciousness, which is himself. If any truth can be asserted a priori, it is this. — Schopenhauer
I think 'ego' is incorrect terminology here. An all-perceiving mind/consciousness, perhaps; but not 'ego' which is 'one's sense of oneself'. — Wayfarer
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