Matter occupies space and - in common day life - has a weight. Anything that has these properties is made of matter. That's the definition. — Heiko
When we see a chair, how do we not see what it is composed of? If we can't say what it is composed of, how can we even say that what we see is a chair? — Harry Hindu
No one has ever sensed matter. We do not observe matter. The things we observe are objects like the chair, the table, and the various other objects we encounter. — Metaphysician Undercover
The reason for your aggravation/aggression, is because your native sense of what is real is being called into question. It's annoying, but that's what philosophy aims at doing. — Wayfarer
Idealism/solipsism is actually a type of naive realism. What you experience is actually how things are. — Harry Hindu
So you can't observe that the chair is composed of wood or platic, of a seat and legs? — Harry Hindu
What difference does it make what word we use to refer to what things are composed of? Answer the question. — Harry Hindu
How is ideas all the way down different from matter all the way down? — Harry Hindu
That's just an idea though, an assumption, not an observation. You are claiming, to paraphrase, "anything that occupies space and has weight is matter". But what we sense, and observe, is particular things occupying space and having weight, not matter. So the validity of this idea, this assumption, or claim you've made, needs to be supported. — Metaphysician Undercover
matter
[mat-er]
See more synonyms for matter on Thesaurus.com
noun
the substance or substances of which any physical object consists or is composed: the matter of which the earth is made.
physical or corporeal substance in general, whether solid, liquid, or gaseous, especially as distinguished from incorporeal substance, as spirit or mind, or from qualities, actions, and the like.
something that occupies space.
So you're telling me that you can't see the difference between a wooden chair and a plastic one? What is imitation wood if not the appearance of wood so that you can't visually distinguish between the plastic it is made of and actual wood?No, those are deductions made from observations. How would you sense that the chair is composed of wood, plastic, a seat, or legs? — Metaphysician Undercover
Each word means what it refers to. What is the actual difference between ideas and matter?It makes a lot of difference what words we use to refer to what things are made of.. Each word has its own meaning, and some claims are more easily justifiable than others. That the chair is composed of a seat and legs, or even that it is composed of wood or plastic, is much more easily justified than that it is composed of matter. The latter appears to be entirely speculative. — Metaphysician Undercover
It's what things are composed of that we are talking about. For the naive realist, ideas are composed of matter, so for the naive realist it is just matter that he observes and it is matter all the way down. For the idealist, it is only ideas that he observes and it is ideas all the way down. Again, what is the difference?For it to be naive realism, though, it has to not just be ideas that you're observing or that you believe exists. — Terrapin Station
Each words means what it refers to. What is the actual difference between ideas and matter? — Harry Hindu
Claim? That is the established definition of the word - go figure! — Heiko
So you're telling me that you can't see the difference between a wooden chair and a plastic one? What is imitation wood if not the appearance of wood so that you can't visually distinguish between the plastic it is made of and actual wood? — Harry Hindu
What is the actual difference between ideas and matter? — Harry Hindu
Kant, for example, could not explain it's resistiveness and preservance in other ways. There cannot be a will to lift a thing up and one to hold it on the ground in one subject at a time.The difference between ideas and matter is that ideas are mind dependent and matter supposedly is not. — Jamesk
Right, to define something is to state an idea. It doesn't indicate whether the defined thing could be observed or not - go figure.
It is the claim that the defined thing, "matter", is something observed rather than just an idea, that is what needs to be justified. — Metaphysician Undercover
Matter is an idea, but not all ideas are matter. — Metaphysician Undercover
It's what things are composed of that we are talking about. For the naive realist, ideas are composed of matter, so for the naive realist it is just matter that he observes and it is matter all the way down. For the idealist, it is only ideas that he observes and it is ideas all the way down. Again, what is the difference? — Harry Hindu
We have no idea of matter because we cannot directly perceive it. — Jamesk
Again this is incorrect. We directly perceive matter all the time. — Terrapin Station
We perceive material objects all of the time, we do not perceive matter. — Jamesk
The material substratum supporting the mind independent, absolute existence of those material objects is invisible. — Jamesk
matter noun
mat·ter | \ˈma-tər
\
Definition of matter
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2a : the substance of which a physical object is composed
b : material substance that occupies space, has mass, and is composed predominantly of atoms consisting of protons, neutrons, and electrons, that constitutes the observable universe, and that is interconvertible with energy
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3a : the indeterminate subject of reality especially : the element in the universe that undergoes formation and alteration
b : the formless substratum of all things which exists only potentially and upon which form acts to produce realities
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7 Christian Science : the illusion that the objects perceived by the physical senses have the reality of substance
What you rather need to do, if you find yourself seduced by the "you can only know/there only are ideas" doctrine, if you find yourself seduced by representationalism, etc. is realize this: you're making a decision between believing that (a) "you can only perceive/know ideas" and (b) "you can perceive/know (things that aren't simply ideas in) the external world." In making that decision, you should have good reasons to believe one of those options instead of the other. You need to critically look at that, critically look at what you consider to be good reasons for buying one option rather than the other, and I can help you be critical regarding the typical reasons given for (a), because the typical reasons for that are very poor. Maybe someone has some unusual, very idiosyncratic reasons for choosing (a), but in that case, let's hear 'em, and we'll see whether they're good or not. — Terrapin Station
Your argument is simply that ‘naive realism is obviously correct’. — Wayfarer
It's not as if quarks and leptons and protons and neutrons etc. are matter, but when they're in larger combinations--including rocks and shoes and trees and buildings and mountains and planets, it's no longer matter. — Terrapin Station
If the particles aren't matter, and the combination of particles are not matter, then what is matter? — apokrisis
So is the idealist saying that the primary substance is mind, not ideas? If so, then the question becomes, "what is the difference betweeen mind and matter?" Ideas would be matter-dependent or mind-dependant. Again, what is the difference?The difference between ideas and matter is that ideas are mind dependent and matter supposedly is not. — Jamesk
But we perceive thinking objects just as we perceive non-thinking objects. The difference lies in their behavior, not how they appear - as material objects. Both thinking and non-thinking objects are governed by the laws of physics (cause and effect).At the end of the Dialogues he allows that the only real difference between the two is the materialists insistence that non-thinking objects or what you call material objects can exist without a mind that perceives them. — Jamesk
Wait--why would we be saying that either the particles or combinations of them are not matter? — Terrapin Station
You said they were not matter, implying matter was something else beyond particles and objects. — apokrisis
So in summary, it has to be stable stuff that can be plastically re-shaped into stable forms. Materialism is the ontology of mankind the builder. That is the pragmatically useful way of understanding nature ... so it must be true. :lol: — apokrisis
truth noun
Definition of truth
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4 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD
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