That really isn't much different than my usage, or the common usages of those terms. I emphasized the parts that are similar, if not the same, as how we are using them, so I really don't see what the big deal is.Regarding how I use subjective and objective, which isn't that unusual, I simply use them so that "subjective" refers to mental phenomena (that is, that subset of brain phenomena that is mental phenomena), and "objective" refers to everything extant that's not mental phenomena. (I've given those definitions on the board quite a few times, so apologies to folks to whom I'm repeating myself yet agin.) — Terrapin Station
SUBJECTIVE
1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subject: such as
a obsolete : of, relating to, or characteristic of one that is a subject especially in lack of freedom of action or in submissiveness
b : being or relating to a grammatical subject especially : nominative
2 : of or relating to the essential being of that which has substance, qualities, attributes, or relations
3a : characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : phenomenal — compare objective sense 1b
b : relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states
4a(1) : peculiar to a particular individual : personal subjective judgments
(2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
b : arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly caused by external stimuli
c : arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes — compare objective sense 1c
5 : lacking in reality or substance : illusory
OBJECTIVE
1a : relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence —used chiefly in medieval philosophy
b : of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind objective reality — compare subjective sense 3a
c of a symptom of disease : perceptible to persons other than the affected individual objective arthritis — compare subjective sense 4c
d : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects, conditions, or phenomena
2 : relating to, characteristic of, or constituting the case of words that follow prepositions or transitive verbs
3a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum — Merriam-Webster
I really don't see what the big deal is. — Harry Hindu
Didn't I just say that your usage isn't much different than my, or the common usage of these terms? Doesn't that mean that you do use those terms in that way?I just became curious because you were using the terms in a way that I wouldn't use them. I'd never say that subjectivity is a subset of objectivity for example. — Terrapin Station
Regarding how I use subjective and objective, which isn't that unusual, I simply use them so that "subjective" refers to mental phenomena (that is, that subset of brain phenomena that is mental phenomena), and "objective" refers to everything extant that's not mental phenomena. (I've given those definitions on the board quite a few times, so apologies to folks to whom I'm repeating myself yet agin.) — Terrapin Station
Brain phenomena qualifies as being part of everything that's not mental phenomena (objective). — Harry Hindu
That isnt what I implied that you said.the way I use the terms, the subset of brain phenomena that have the property of mentality is NOT objective. — Terrapin Station
I use the terms so that all you have to ask is, "Is this a mental phenomenon?" If the answer is "Yes," then necessarily it's subjective and not objective. If the answer is "No," then necessarily it's objective and not subjective.
Phenomenon b, which is the brain state that helps regulate our respiration. That is autonomic and not mental. Thus that state is objective (and necessarily not subjective). — Terrapin Station
Presumably you intend that anything one has knowledge of is “mental” and that which we do not have knowledge of (regardless of it being a brain state of a kind as well) is not “mental”. Is that right? — DingoJones
Within the brain, the autonomic nervous system is regulated by the hypothalamus. Autonomic functions include control of respiration, cardiac regulation (the cardiac control center), vasomotor activity (the vasomotor center), and certain reflex actions such as coughing, sneezing, swallowing and vomiting. Those are then subdivided into other areas and are also linked to ANS subsystems and nervous systems external to the brain. The hypothalamus, just above the brain stem, acts as an integrator for autonomic functions, receiving ANS regulatory input from the limbic system to do so.[3]
But what you said after that - the part I quoted - you said that mental phenomena are a subset of brain phenomena. A subset is part of a larger group of similar things, not opposite things. Your subjective is subset of the objective. Either that, or mental phenomena are not subsets of brain phenomena.So see what I said right after that above: — Terrapin Station
They have at least one identical property. They are brain phenomena. Why can't you either admit that you are wrong in saying that mental phenomenon is subset of brain phenomena or that you were wrong is saying subjective is not a subset of the objective? When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.Not all brain phenomena have identical properties. — Terrapin Station
You're right. It is stupid. All because you couldn't answer a simple question several posts ago:There's no way in Hell I'd ever try to discuss anything more complex with you by the way, given the absurd difficulty we're having with something so simple and stupid. — Terrapin Station
What is brain phenomena? Objective or subjective? — Harry Hindu
Finally!"Objective," however, in my usage, does NOT refer to "brain phenomena. — Terrapin Station
Yes, they all have the property of being brain phenomena. Brain phenomena with the property of being mental is a subset, and "brain phenomena" is a superset that includes the subset of brain phenomena that has the property of being mental. — Terrapin Station
Objective refers to things that do not have the property of being mental. So subjective stuff, in my usage, isn't a subset of objective stuff. I'm stipulating this. So it's not something I can get wrong. I'm telling you something about the way I use words. You can use the words differently. It's fine if you do. — Terrapin Station
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