Makes sense very well said. Nothing in excess, exactly.

What if it were eating too much? Or gambling? Video Games? Isn't that neglect more so?

Buying from gangs is bad, but if it were legal it would be entrepreneurs. When alcohol was illegal Al Capone made millions and a lot of police died.

It's a whole source of income and byproduct that can help the economy.

The brain chemistry though true, alcohol is the same way and worse it is a poison literally... somebody is fucking wrong here. Either alcohol be illegal or marijuana be legal... It contradicts itself any other way... and I am on the premise of unlimited rights not less.

I mean who will protect us 24/7 from ourselves? Isn't that what freedom is?

Just my thoughts.

I mean who will protect us 24/7 from ourselves? — Drek

Nanny state to the rescue!

[

Well, if as you say ignorance is exculpatory, then for the ignorant, there is no crime, yes? — tim wood

What a wonderful philosophical question. I can think of few things worse than bringing a child into this world without being prepared to care for the child and we have not made that a crime. Maybe we should?

There is one law, that is the law of nature, and if we make good choices the consequences will be good, but if we make bad choices the consequences will be bad. Our laws are supposed to comply with the laws of nature, and the laws that do comply with the laws of nature get good results and the laws that don't comply with the laws of nature get bad results. Our reaction to pot has lead to a lot of bad, and I would hate for anyone in my family to go to prison because of pot. Our laws regarding pot, seem to be what we should stand against.

I know alcohol is extremely destructive and causes much suffering, so does meth, but I am not sure marijuana is that bad. We obey the laws when feel empowered to make them and change them. However, at this time we feel disenfranchised and do not respect our laws as we once may have. For sure our laws did not attempt to control our lives as much as they do now. And I am very suspicious about the reasons for making pot illegal.

Well educated people enjoying the benefits of society have a better chance of making good decisions than ignorant people with nothing to loose. Perhaps it would be better to spend money on education and human welfare than on prisons?

Why does anyone want to use pot? What is the harm? Is there a good alternative?

The brain chemistry though true, alcohol is the same way and worse it is a poison literally... somebody is fucking wrong here. Either alcohol be illegal or marijuana be legal... It contradicts itself any other way... and I am on the premise of unlimited rights not less. — Drek

I am in favor of what you said, however, I would add taxing all substances including sugar to cover the harm done by the substances. Use the taxes to cover medical cost and pay for support groups and rehabilitation, and when families are harmed, to help them recover as well.

Prisons are expensive and waste away a person's life and this also hurts everyone who cares about the person in prison, including the children. That is just barbaric. It is not justice that will make life better.

Gambling should also be taxed to for treating those who become addicted and helping families that are hurt.

Tax wood products to replant trees and so on. Making money needs to come with responsibility and taxing a product or service to resolve a problem caused by using a product or service is responsible.

Yes. Mitigate the costs to society by letting people who choose their substance pay a little higher tax. that's tax with representation. Though in MN I disagree cigarette tax money should go to football, there are other worthy causes. I'm assuming after all said and done it will, hopefully.

Prison has a bunch of stoners meshing with hardened criminal... it's pretty sad.

"Making money needs to come with responsibility and taxing a product or service to resolve a problem caused by using a product or service is responsible."

As much as I don't like taxes, THIS! It's representative too, so it has a good moral basis. Unlike how Britain used to tax us and use the money willy nilly.

I don't think labor should be taxed (Income tax). Am I crazy? I think the surplus created by capitalism should go to the poor first (pay your nation first) then traded. So, we wouldn't need to tax laborers and the boss man only loses out on materials he may have or not have sold anyway. Instead of giving tax money to the poor we actually give them the materials that they need so they don't spend it on drugs or whatever (There are responsible ones). Most other taxes like gas tax are still in effect (I forgot the name for these taxes). So labor keeps his money and pays taxes on products and services he chooses. While the poor get apples and other extra stuff. The capitalist (I'm not a marxist!) has the high esteem of being a powerful force in the economy instead of resented. Capitalism still lifts all boats and has equal opportunity, but we could essentially get rid of the "lower class". There would still be terminally ill people and charity would still work for them.

I was in Erbert and Gerberts today and they sold day old bread for $.99. They aren't going to make a killing on day old bread....

Well, if as you say ignorance is exculpatory, then for the ignorant, there is no crime, yes?
— tim wood

What a wonderful philosophical question. I can think of few things worse than bringing a child into this world without being prepared to care for the child and we have not made that a crime. Maybe we should? — Athena

Maybe we should, but it seems a red herring. What do you want to write about?

Good question. So if it's legal in State X and illegal in State Y.........is it wrong to do it in State Y.

I say No. It is not wrong. I have no philosophical defense at all. It brings health benefits to an INSANE system which would rather addict people onto expensive and deadly substances to profit a bloated and morally corrupt Industry (Big Pharma).

To me, it's like asking if it's wrong to free a slave. No, it's not wrong. Even if it's illegal, it's not wrong to free a slave.

Where pot is legal, people who have been enslaved to Big Pharma are getting freed.....to the tune of 1.6 million less doses A DAY!!! Yes, a day.......

Bring on the pot...............free someone today.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/04/02/598787768/opioid-use-lower-in-states-that-eased-marijuana-laws

For sure we live in a society obsessed by being technically correct and I believe this is a serious threat to our liberty. In the past, we cared more about the spirit of the law, and said tyranny is going by the letter of the law. I won't argue that we are not highly concerned about technical correctness today. However, in the past there was room for a judge to say, we will overlook your violation this time, but if it happens again, you will be punished for the infraction and this one too. We relied on the wisdom of judges and didn't make the state the authority over punishments. A wise person isn't wise if s/he does not take ignorance of law into consideration.

This is not the only time in history that a society became overly concerned with technological correctness. I question if this concern for technological is a good thing? — Athena

This is definitely something I agree with you on. There should be far more common sense in the criminal justice system. The objective should be to make everyone's lives better, and that's not done by taking a draconian, "technically correct" approach to criminal justice.

This is definitely something I agree with you on. There should be far more common sense in the criminal justice system. The objective should be to make everyone's lives better, and that's not done by taking a draconian, "technically correct" approach to criminal justice. — Terrapin Station

The problem with relying on “common sense”, in addition to being so rare “common” seems a comical word to use, is that it also opens the door to bias and emotion based judgements. Im not sure its possible to reliably have one without the other. The strength/usefulness of “technically correct” is its reference to an objective standard, at the price mention by Athena.
I agree with both of you, I lament there isnt...well better judgement being applied by judges. Seems like we could set the bar a bit higher than merely referencing a list of rules. Alas, what can ya do? Its the tragedy of the commons. If we are going to be inclusive to as much of humanity as reasonably possible in our laws and/ethics, we have to compensate for the dumbest, most criminal and most unethical among us AND the (I would say) least capable judges/arbiters. This is why we have the “technically correct” standards and I think thats what we are stuck with unless a division of classes or catagories or measuement is introduced, which of course has its own problems.

it also opens the door to bias and emotion based judgements — DingoJones

I don't believe that it's really possible to avoid that, though.

I condone neither alcoholism or drugs but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZEivOBQ6nc

Well, true. Poorly put on my part. The door is always open of course. I should have said the door opens wider. I think that its possible for bias and emotion to effect judgement to varying degrees, and meant my points based on that rather than the binary implication of my shitty metaphor.

The bottom line for me is moral is a matter of cause and effect, and we should be held responsible for the effect of our words and deeds. That means being responsible for pursuing knowledge so our judgment is the best it can be. Only recently have we become so dependent on formal education provided by colleges, and this dependency on colleges has distorted our understanding our what is important about a democracy and being human.

About making it illegal to have children if one can not support them, that is a different subject and I have a lot to say about that but not in this thread. :grin: Just compared to doing pot, what is worse. Doing the pot or not supporting a child and the parent who needs to care for the child?

This is definitely something I agree with you on. There should be far more common sense in the criminal justice system. The objective should be to make everyone's lives better, and that's not done by taking a draconian, "technically correct" approach to criminal justice. — Terrapin Station

Can we start a movement and do something about our barbaric criminal justice system?!

in a Micheal Moore show, "Where to Invade Next" is a prison with 4 unarmed guards whose purpose is to make people's lives better so they can return to society truly corrected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KeAZho8TKo

We treat stray animals better than humans in prison and we even imprison people with mental disorders and then abuse them terribly. Where to Invade Next also has a video from one of our prisons and this is a terrible national shame. No way are people who do things the way do them in the US, international leaders that lift the human potential. When it comes to being good human beings, the US might not have much to defend? Smoking pot is not as bad as our prison system. There is no moral superiority in some of our social agreements.

I smoke a lotttttt of weed. So I'm probably going to hell.

Throwback to this post about how LSD made me Jesus. Lol.

This is about to get really real:

2016 was a really intense year for me. Towards the end of 2015 I took it upon myself to give the trust enough in myself to start smoking pot and drinking again after 5 years of sobriety. (During that 5 years I was around parties allllll the time; I even organized them and got all of the people together to make them as big and beautiful as I could.) Everyone knew I was sober, but it didn't effect my relationships with my friends because they all knew that I try my hardest to be a loving and genuine person to everyone I meet.
But I started back...
The weed and the booze aren't what threw me for a loop, though. I am the type of person who can take one puff or drink one beer and then walk away and continue about my life like they are no big deal.
No... it wasn't addiction.
It was Hallucinogens.
I took some acid.
It gave me feelings like I had never before experienced. Physically, mentally, and emotionally something changed inside me and I became extremely curious as to what it was about these chemicals that opened up a whole new perspective of life in my mind.
So I indulged. Regularly.
Too regularly. My curiosity led to a habit of accepting almost any drug that crossed my path. (I even took meth once - NEVER again will I do that; it was absolutely horrendous.)
I never went out of my way to find these chemicals, but I did intentionally put myself in positions and situations where I knew that they would surface for my indulgence.
After a while... I felt enlightened from them. "Woke" as the kids say now a days...
But my "wokeness" went too far. It gave me a sense of superiority over others in a way. In my mind I could do no wrong because everything I chose to do was considered yet another part in my path towards... Well towards making the world a better place.
I became a saint in my own eyes.
It became my destiny to travel the world spreading love and peace to anyone who was willing to have it. At one point I was even considering spending my very last $1500 on a plane ticket to Israel. I was going to go and see whoever was in charge and I was going to end the Jerusalem conflict with my love. (Trust me I know it's silly lol)

Instead I left my family in Denver and I went off to Oregon with nothing. I offended the people I took shelter under with my self righteous delusions of grandeur. (much like I offended many with the same ideals before I even left home; many people have forgiven me, some haven't, and some I will likely ask forgivness of until I die because I have a hard time forgiving myself.)
Anyway - they kicked me out and I became homeless in Eugene Oregon with a heart full of love and a mind full of confusion. It was here that I found a feeling of desire and love for art. Homelessness is very boring at times and art kept me thrilled to be alive. Soon after, I realized that my greatest creation was at home without my guidance and without my affection, so I gave up my desire to change the world and traded it for a bus ticket home to be a presence for the greatest achievement that I will ever leave on Earth - my son.
This experience, and these chemicals changed my life. They took away the pressure of being the perfect human and they gave me the understanding that purpose is within - not without.

If you are experiencing a "third eye opening experience" from hallucinogens I want to say this: it is not your job to heal the world. Don't put that pressure on yourself. It is your job to find the peace in your own heart enough to accept your life as it happens. It's okay to feel "woke" but trust me - you do not want to be "the wokest" because there is a very fine line on the matter of morality and we just aren't capable of having all of the answers all of the time - no matter how genuine we feel in our hearts.

Fortunately I have had the year of 2017 to recover from this life changing experience. I no longer feel the curiosity that was brought about by the chemicals that I no longer take, and I don't feel the desire to dig deeper into this altered state of mind. I feel like I learned what I needed to learn, and thank God I don't need to learn it again.

I love you. I love life. I love my family and my son. We will put our minds to bringing prosperity to our home and we will win.

Excellent post . . . we need a "thumbs up" button for posts like that.

I accept the "thumbs up" from Terrapin Station and pass the "thumbs up" on to Lif3r. It takes courage to expose ourselves and you obviously did so to pass what you learned on to us. That is a very generous act.

I think we have some agreement that hurting others is not okay. I think the world would be a better place if we shared family values and drew the line at not doing things that hurt our families. What we are doing stops being moral when it hurts others.

Failure to be a good parent harms the child and this harm is passed on for generations.

Ok, very good point. Answer me this; has law in the way that we experience as a society today been around since the dawn of man's known existence? If so I concede, if not, what part of humankinds nature drove us to put in place law?

No, it isn't. There's a whole art to persuasive rhetoric. You're going to tailor it to the person (or the people) you're trying to persuade, a la the traditional sense of ad hominem. And yeah, it's "disingenuous" on your view, but that hardly matters. The goal is to persuade others. — Terrapin Station

Underlined is the very definition of sophistry. Perhaps you should try the Sophistry Forums instead!

Underlined is the very definition of sophistry. Perhaps you should try the Sophistry Forums instead! — Janus

So you actually do believe that there are things that are factually correct when it comes to (foundational) moral stances, aesthetic stances, etc. Even you had denied that, but it seemed pretty clear that you believe it.

If you are not choosing it over responsibilities, and it's not a financial burden, is it really bad?

My main drug in question is marijuana.

Would it be more immoral to lie to people that "it makes them crazy, rapists, and killers?" — Drek

I personally do not think drug usage is not so much of a moral issue, rather it is an ethical issue in society to which unfortunately drug usage in general in the states have been criminalized to the point where communities have been disproportionately have become affected. I don't believe what you're doing is immoral, however rightness and wrongness are subjective, contingent upon each of our individual understanding of rightness and wrongness.

The harder stuff is more risky. — S

True, but what are risks to those that indulge in its recreational usage? There are plenty of functional users.

The harder stuff is more risky.
— S

True, but what are risks to those that indulge in its recreational usage? There are plenty of functional users. — Anaxagoras

Oops, I misread your question the first time around. I read it as asking what are the risks...

Nevermind. I get your point now. As in, the risks aren't the be-all and end-all for some, and that is true of many people, in relation to a whole variety of recreational activities, not just drug taking. Some can still function, or rather function enough to get by.

I have not denied that there are qualities relative to the human condition embodied in art works and in moral stances and acts that make them better or worse than other art works or moral stances or acts. Obviously there are no objects of the senses which may be directly observed to confirm such judgements; and so a precise hierarchy of values cannot be established. But the difference of quality is obvious in extremis, so we know that Shakespeare is better literature than Mills and Boon, and we know that Bach created greater musical works than probably anyone today, and that Da Vinci is a greater artist than the middle class hobby painter. We know that acts of love are morally better than acts of hate, and so on.

None of those "in extremis" examples are factual, true, correct. They're simply opinions that one can have.

I think that's just bullshit; but I already knew you would say that. Have you found a good Sophistry Forum yet? Some are better than others. :rofl:

"That's sophistry" isn't an adequate response to the objection.

There is no adequate response to sophistry other than to call it out. No argument will do the job because the response from a sophist will always be more sophistry.

Sophistry. Hmm. What is it?