How is this not a contradiction?If gender is socially constructed (i.e. not determined by the individual) then it's subjective and CAN be determined by the individual. — Judaka
If gender is socially constructed (i.e. not determined by the individual) then it's subjective and CAN be determined by the individual. — Judaka
How is this not a contradiction? — Harry Hindu
Isn't it useful to recognize and be knowledgeable of the statistics, especially when it's as high as 99.9% for the topic we are discussing - the real differences between sex/gender? If not, then why have statistics?Definitely there are some physical or behavioral differences statistically, most not universally, correlated with biological sex, and that definitely influences gender concepts, but that doesn't amount to gender not being conceptual/mental. What we're referring to by "gender" conventionally is something conceptual. — Terrapin Station
Isn't it useful to recognize and be knowledgeable of the statistics, especially when it's as high as 99.9% for the topic we are discussing - the real differences between sex/gender? If not, then why have statistics? — Harry Hindu
Because "gender" hasn't been defined consistently as something other than sex, I consider sex the same as gender. — Harry Hindu
No, I asked if it was useful to recognize and be knowledgeable of the statistics. It was a question, not a statement.Wait, are you saying that something statistically unusual isn't real? — Terrapin Station
So, for someone to say that they feel like a woman when they were born a man, what are they actually saying - that they feel like a social construction, or a biological sex, or something else entirely (and if so, what)? — Harry Hindu
Again, your post doesn't take into account the rest of my post. I would again, suggest readers to go back and read my post prior to the one TP replied to here as a response to this post.Re that, you can do that, of course, but you're just not going to understand a lot of what people are talking about in that case. It would be as if you're intentionally courting confusion on your part re what a lot of people are talking about. — Terrapin Station
Again, your post doesn't take into account the rest of my post — Harry Hindu
If someone is able to make a personal decision about what gender is AND that decision can run counter to the expectations of the culture they live in, then how is it a social construction? — Harry Hindu
They're saying that relative to social norms with respect to gender, as correlated to biological sex, they feel the social norm doesn't match their psychological reality — Terrapin Station
Re this, for like the third or fourth time now, what I said was: "Psychological and social, yes. Different from biological sex. There's nothing to debate, really. People can feel they are different than their biological sex says they are, especially in relation to the social norms that become associated with biological sex. It's handy to have a term for that. The term we use for it is "gender." — Terrapin Station
That the definition they are using is inconsistent. You owe me $1000. Bitcoin?Tell me what in the rest of your post is relevant to what I said, and if I agree, I'll paypal you $1000 — Terrapin Station
Sounds like it is all personal thought processing to me, based on one's own individual experiences. Are you saying that if a cisgender or transgender moves to a different culture, they would have a different gender, or not?Biology is empirical.
How we relate to our own biology is perception.
How we categorize that perception is an individual construct.
Categorizing that perception into an individual construct is through comparing individual perception to social norms of perception.
Therefore, gender identity is a social construct. — Christoffer
Ah, so you finally read the whole post and created a whole new post to respond to the same post. All this does is make it more difficult for readers to follow. — Harry Hindu
So now the distinction is between psychological and biological factors? — Harry Hindu
This leads us to a metaphysical discussion about the difference between mind and matter where I say that there is no distinction — Harry Hindu
but if you are saying that one's psychological reality is a social construct, — Harry Hindu
That the definition they are using is inconsistent. — Harry Hindu
Psychological and social, yes. Different from biological sex. There's nothing to debate, really. People can feel they are different than their biological sex says they are, especially in relation to the social norms that become associated with biological sex. It's handy to have a term for that. The term we use for it is "gender." — Terrapin Station
As far as I know minds only exist in individual heads on a particular body with a particular sexual characteristic. Are you saying that society has a mind?Gender is male/female/etc. conceptually. Concepts are mind-dependent. — Terrapin Station
Minds have a particular sexual characteristic--you mean that in terms of mental content, there are characterstics associated with biological sex F, and other particular characteristics associated with particular sex M? — Terrapin Station
Then wouldn't you say that is what it feels like to be a man or a woman? — Harry Hindu
Is there wiring in the brain for menstrual cycles? — Harry Hindu
I asked you what it feels like to be a woman or man first. Stop evading.What happened to the fact that I just asked you a question (that you haven't bothered to answer)? — Terrapin Station
I have been addressing the contradictions (they are numerous) in virtually every post.You also never answered the "what is P in the contradiction" question above.
So we're back to one thing at a time, because you're ignoring stuff. — Terrapin Station
I asked you what it feels like to be a woman or man first. Stop evading. — Harry Hindu
So "gender" is a cultural characteristic - something that is part of the identity of a culture, not an individual, and "gender identity" is one's perception of one's self relative to this cultural characteristic of a particular culture? So, in essence one isn't changing one's "gender" when moving to a culture with a different "gender". They are changing their "gender identity".They would have a different gender identity, not biological gender. But gender as it's used in language and culture rarely focus on the biological, except for within medicine and biological applications. So if we are talking about a cultural approach to gender, how it exists within a society, how it is referred to, how it affects social interactions etc. gender in that sense has nothing to do with biology and all about the construct society formed around the biology. — Christoffer
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