If gender is socially constructed (i.e. not determined by the individual) then it's subjective and CAN be determined by the individual. — Judaka

How is this not a contradiction?

If gender is socially constructed (i.e. not determined by the individual) then it's subjective and CAN be determined by the individual. — Judaka

How is this not a contradiction? — Harry Hindu

Yeah, I don't get what he's saying there, either.

Definitely there are some physical or behavioral differences statistically, most not universally, correlated with biological sex, and that definitely influences gender concepts, but that doesn't amount to gender not being conceptual/mental. What we're referring to by "gender" conventionally is something conceptual. — Terrapin Station

Isn't it useful to recognize and be knowledgeable of the statistics, especially when it's as high as 99.9% for the topic we are discussing - the real differences between sex/gender? If not, then why have statistics?

Because "gender" hasn't been defined consistently as something other than sex, I consider sex the same as gender.

You are right in the fact that there are behaviors that different cultures expect the different sexes to engage in. The fact that these behaviors are a characteristic of a culture, that is to say that it is part of the identity of that culture, and vary from culture to culture, is evidence that these aren't behaviors that are indicative of one's sex. They are simply human behaviors that that are expected by a particular culture, based on one's sex, and vary from culture to culture.

So, for someone to say that they feel like a woman when they were born a man, what are they actually saying - that they feel like a social construction, or a biological sex, or something else entirely (and if so, what)?

If someone is able to make a personal decision about what gender is AND that decision can run counter to the expectations of the culture they live in, then how is it a social construction?

Isn't it useful to recognize and be knowledgeable of the statistics, especially when it's as high as 99.9% for the topic we are discussing - the real differences between sex/gender? If not, then why have statistics? — Harry Hindu

Wait, are you saying that something statistically unusual isn't real?

Because "gender" hasn't been defined consistently as something other than sex, I consider sex the same as gender. — Harry Hindu

Re that, you can do that, of course, but you're just not going to understand a lot of what people are talking about in that case. It would be as if you're intentionally courting confusion on your part re what a lot of people are talking about.

Wait, are you saying that something statistically unusual isn't real? — Terrapin Station

No, I asked if it was useful to recognize and be knowledgeable of the statistics. It was a question, not a statement.

Sure. Why wouldn't it be useful to be familiar with any factual info? Among the factual info that it's useful to be familiar with is the fact that there's a popular convention of using "gender" to refer to a concept that's different from, though correlated with, biological sex, the fact that there are social norms with respect to gender, and the fact that individuals can feel at odds with gender a la the social norms.

I added this to the previous post, by the way. I should have just posted it at the same time:

" Because "gender" hasn't been defined consistently as something other than sex, I consider sex the same as gender. — Harry Hindu"


Re that, you can do that, of course, but you're just not going to understand a lot of what people are talking about in that case. It would be as if you're intentionally courting confusion on your part re what a lot of people are talking about.

So, for someone to say that they feel like a woman when they were born a man, what are they actually saying - that they feel like a social construction, or a biological sex, or something else entirely (and if so, what)? — Harry Hindu

They're saying that relative to social norms with respect to gender, as correlated to biological sex, they feel the social norm doesn't match their psychological reality.

Re that, you can do that, of course, but you're just not going to understand a lot of what people are talking about in that case. It would be as if you're intentionally courting confusion on your part re what a lot of people are talking about. — Terrapin Station

Again, your post doesn't take into account the rest of my post. I would again, suggest readers to go back and read my post prior to the one TP replied to here as a response to this post.

Again, your post doesn't take into account the rest of my post — Harry Hindu

Tell me what in the rest of your post is relevant to what I said, and if I agree, I'll paypal you $1000

If someone is able to make a personal decision about what gender is AND that decision can run counter to the expectations of the culture they live in, then how is it a social construction? — Harry Hindu

Re this, for like the third or fourth time now, what I said was: "Psychological and social, yes. Different from biological sex. There's nothing to debate, really. People can feel they are different than their biological sex says they are, especially in relation to the social norms that become associated with biological sex. It's handy to have a term for that. The term we use for it is "gender."

They're saying that relative to social norms with respect to gender, as correlated to biological sex, they feel the social norm doesn't match their psychological reality — Terrapin Station

Re this, for like the third or fourth time now, what I said was: "Psychological and social, yes. Different from biological sex. There's nothing to debate, really. People can feel they are different than their biological sex says they are, especially in relation to the social norms that become associated with biological sex. It's handy to have a term for that. The term we use for it is "gender." — Terrapin Station

Ah, so you finally read the whole post and created a whole new post to respond to the same post. All this does is make it more difficult for readers to follow.

So now the distinction is between psychological and biological factors? This leads us to a metaphysical discussion about the difference between mind and matter where I say that there is no distinction. Evolutionary psychology is a scientific theory that posits natural physical processes shape our minds and how they function. The causal relationship between our minds and the rest of the world shows that mind and world aren't different types of things, just different kinds of things.

Not only that, but if you are saying that one's psychological reality is a social construct, then you are essentially saying that we engage in group-think all the time. Do you believe in the uniqueness of one's individual categories, or are they all social constructions (the product of group-think)?

Tell me what in the rest of your post is relevant to what I said, and if I agree, I'll paypal you $1000 — Terrapin Station

That the definition they are using is inconsistent. You owe me $1000. Bitcoin?

• Biology is empirical.
• How we relate to our own biology is perception.
• How we categorize that perception is an individual construct.
• Categorizing that perception into an individual construct is through comparing individual perception to social norms of perception.

Therefore, gender identity is a social construct.

Biology is empirical.
How we relate to our own biology is perception.
How we categorize that perception is an individual construct.
Categorizing that perception into an individual construct is through comparing individual perception to social norms of perception.


Therefore, gender identity is a social construct. — Christoffer

Sounds like it is all personal thought processing to me, based on one's own individual experiences. Are you saying that if a cisgender or transgender moves to a different culture, they would have a different gender, or not?

Ah, so you finally read the whole post and created a whole new post to respond to the same post. All this does is make it more difficult for readers to follow. — Harry Hindu

The rest of the post had nothing to do with the bit that you claimed needed the rest of the post.

I don't need to respond to everything someone writes, and I'm not going to do that if they're ignoring stuff.

So now the distinction is between psychological and biological factors? — Harry Hindu

So now? So now?? I explained this to you in the second post in this thread. The very first response you received.

This leads us to a metaphysical discussion about the difference between mind and matter where I say that there is no distinction — Harry Hindu

I agree that there's no distinction between mind and matter. What's there's a distinction between is properties of matter. Not all of it "behaves" just the same way. Hence why you don't smear jelly into battery compartments to make a battery-powered device operate.

but if you are saying that one's psychological reality is a social construct, — Harry Hindu

If only I'd said anything even remotely resembling that.

That the definition they are using is inconsistent. — Harry Hindu

What's P in the contradiction?

Psychological and social, yes. Different from biological sex. There's nothing to debate, really. People can feel they are different than their biological sex says they are, especially in relation to the social norms that become associated with biological sex. It's handy to have a term for that. The term we use for it is "gender." — Terrapin Station

So then "gender" only refers to that group of people that feel that their biological sex is different than how they feel (I thought the term for that was "transgender"), or to the relationship between transgenders and the social norms, but not the relationship between cisgenders and social norms? Which are you actually saying? You seem to be excluding cisgenders as a gender.

How does it feel to be a woman or a man?

Didn't I write, and didn't you respond to this?

Gender is male/female/etc. conceptually. Concepts are mind-dependent.

Biological sex is male/female mind-independently--per genetics, (nonmental) physical structure, etc.

They would have a different gender identity, not biological gender. But gender as it's used in language and culture rarely focus on the biological, except for within medicine and biological applications. So if we are talking about a cultural approach to gender, how it exists within a society, how it is referred to, how it affects social interactions etc. gender in that sense has nothing to do with biology and all about the construct society formed around the biology.

Gender is male/female/etc. conceptually. Concepts are mind-dependent. — Terrapin Station

As far as I know minds only exist in individual heads on a particular body with a particular sexual characteristic. Are you saying that society has a mind?

Minds have a particular sexual characteristic--you mean that in terms of mental content, there are characterstics associated with biological sex F, and other particular characteristics associated with biological sex M?

Minds have a particular sexual characteristic--you mean that in terms of mental content, there are characterstics associated with biological sex F, and other particular characteristics associated with particular sex M? — Terrapin Station

Then wouldn't you say that is what it feels like to be a man or a woman?

Then wouldn't you say that is what it feels like to be a man or a woman? — Harry Hindu

I'm asking you a question. Why would what I say it feels like to be a man or woman be a question?

Is there wiring in the brain for menstrual cycles?

http://www.health.am/gyneco/more/brain_memory_modifies_wiring_during_the_female_menstrual_cycle/

If this is the case, then when a man claims to feel like a woman is it the case that he has some kind of wiring difference in the brain that is in contrast with the rest of his physical sexual characteristics. If so, aren't we talking about biological factors, and not social?

Do you disagree that our different levels of estrogen and testosterone make us feel different?

Is there wiring in the brain for menstrual cycles? — Harry Hindu

What happened to the fact that I just asked you a question (that you haven't bothered to answer)?

You also never answered the "what is P in the contradiction" question above.

So we're back to one thing at a time, because you're ignoring stuff.

What happened to the fact that I just asked you a question (that you haven't bothered to answer)? — Terrapin Station

I asked you what it feels like to be a woman or man first. Stop evading.

You also never answered the "what is P in the contradiction" question above.

So we're back to one thing at a time, because you're ignoring stuff. — Terrapin Station

I have been addressing the contradictions (they are numerous) in virtually every post.

I asked you what it feels like to be a woman or man first. Stop evading. — Harry Hindu

No, you didn't. "Then wouldn't you say that is what it feels like to be a man or a woman?" was in response to the question you're not answering.

Go back and read the page again. I asked that question twice. Once before your question, and then after in an attempt to get you to answer. You're not paying attention.

What was the first sentence, or part of a unique phrase, in the post in question?

Are you talking about this? "So, for someone to say that they feel like a woman when they were born a man, what are they actually saying?"

I responded to that. I wrote: "They're saying that relative to social norms with respect to gender, as correlated to biological sex, they feel the social norm doesn't match their psychological reality."

Are you not reading my posts?

They would have a different gender identity, not biological gender. But gender as it's used in language and culture rarely focus on the biological, except for within medicine and biological applications. So if we are talking about a cultural approach to gender, how it exists within a society, how it is referred to, how it affects social interactions etc. gender in that sense has nothing to do with biology and all about the construct society formed around the biology. — Christoffer

So "gender" is a cultural characteristic - something that is part of the identity of a culture, not an individual, and "gender identity" is one's perception of one's self relative to this cultural characteristic of a particular culture? So, in essence one isn't changing one's "gender" when moving to a culture with a different "gender". They are changing their "gender identity".

So when someone says that they feel like a woman, they are referring to their gender identity, not their gender. Gender is a social construction and gender identity is not. Gender identity is a personal view. Is this all correct?