I, unfortunately, see no difference in the world run however anyone imagines it. The societies of man will always fail. — Heister Eggcart

I agree. But the progressives have stolen society. It used to be conservatives, for most of history, with people all having respect for values and morality. Nobody questioned moral standards. People made mistakes and had failings, that's true, but everyone was aware of what is right and wrong. Now there is no moral standard anymore. We see all sorts of despicable people coming on TV - including Trump, Crooked, and all of them. Society has never been so corrupt. It's about time we put an end to progressivism and restore the moral order that has always kept society stable - for a certain time.

To think you can change the world and somehow make it better in your own image...naw. — Heister Eggcart

It's not in my own image. All religious people - according to their traditions at least - would like to see the world this way. No religion for example morally permits sexual immorality, promiscuity and all these disgusting vices. If any religious leader from the past would be alive - he'd march with a sword in hand today. Immorality has never been at the surface as much as today.

"If the world is not a fiery pit, we'll make it one. Then they'll understand the horror they've turned the world into." — TheWillowOfDarkness

The world is a fiery pit already. It's just that people have to wake up and understand it. We have to bring religion back. We have to bring social order back. We have to bring morality - including sexual morality back. We have to bring back family stability. We have to stop the proceedings of going for an abortion as if one is going to buy candy. Really we're having a lot of problems. It's time we wake up, and take this world back - and Trump, even though he is evil - is like the pitch black just before the break of dawn (as Heidegger would say). We've had enough darkness, vice and immorality. Let's bring it to a culmination with Trump.

It used to be conservatives, for most of history, with people all having respect for values and morality — Agustino

>:O

No religion for example morally permits sexual immorality, promiscuity and all these disgusting vices. — Agustino

Muhammad's laughing beneath his green dome.

We have to bring morality - including sexual morality back. — Agustino

You're never going to get that. You'll be searching for that forever, all the while propping up creeps like Trump in the delusion that he'll help fix the problem. It's quite frankly shocking how on one hand you say that the world is fallen, yet think it to be entirely "fixable", to coin some Trump terminology.

It should be clear now that nothing will prevent Agustino continuing in this forum his ideological mission to denigrate progressives and elevate any public figure who he thinks opposes them. The fact that his "arguments" are ludicrous, hypocritical, and self-contradictory, and have been shown to be so on many occasions hasn't even slowed him down. On the contrary, it seems to have only made him more convinced of his righteousness. The ideological fog in which he has shrouded himself is so thick it has obscured all consciousness of the existence of any world outside it. And from within its confines he will no doubt continue to stomp his way through every discussion of any relevance to progressivism in order to vomit up his prejudices on it. So, this post isn't aimed at him. It's just to state for the record that to understand progressivism and its impact on society, a quick internet search for the most progressive countries out there, a follow-up search for the term "Human Development Index", and a consideration of the latter's meaning and its correlations with the former could be useful in understanding why we are not dealing here with a cancer that needs the chemotherapy of a corrupt sexual predator with an insatiable narcissism to help excise it from the planet.

The plain truth, beautifully stated.
(Y)

Agustino is like a sick quack who on encountering the healthiest people on the planet immediately resolves to make them as ill as he is. I can only hope that he never ends up in progressive hell holes like Norway, Sweden, or Holland, as the cognitive dissonance alone may finish him off. Socially conservative nirvanas like North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Uganda instead beckon. Off you go to the promised lands, Agustino...And take Trump with you.

I don't know why, but I am reminded of Every Which Way but Loose.
:s

I'd think female suffrage and gender equality and all that are progressive ideas. No idea how Trump is going to take that to the extreme since he's clearly regressive... to somewhere between the stone age and bronze age.

We're still considered progressive abroad? Why thank you!

The Dutch field of grass looks different when you're standing in it.

Exactly, what Agustino has been presenting and then railing against is an infantile caricature of progressivism, which focuses on issues such as rampant consumerism, and sexual licentiousness with phrases like "political correctness" and "Hollywood values" thrown in randomly to the mix. As if these were the progressive priorities, to make everyone buy stuff and bang each other while watching movies about adultery and how to destroy free speech. As if progressives weren't more interested in equal access to education, eliminating discrimination, affordable healthcare, and creating economic opportunities for all regardless of their social class. Exactly the sort of priorities that help countries move up the HDI. And, of course, being against sexual licentiousness and consumerism is not incompatible with being a progressive anyhow. A progressive is no more likely to put an adulterer on a pedestal than a social conservative is, and many progressives, including myself, think consumerism is out of control.

(Last point is that extremists like Agustino, being himself a caricature of social conservatism, make it harder for sensible social conservatives to be understood.)

We're still considered progressive abroad? Why thank you!

The Dutch field of grass looks different when you're standing in it. — Benkei

Field of tulips, surely. :D

People were actually pretty egalitarian in the stone age.

It's amazing how the most vocal moralisers often have the fewest moral principles. — Michael

This is really the heart it it. For all the moralising that Agustino does, he still doesn't understand what every normal, decent person so obviously gets without these grand moral theories of sexual sin. It's so warped. You don't knowingly elect a sexual predator to president. Trump should be put on trial, not into the fucking oval office. You don't give him the success and power he wants.

It is also so painfully obvious that sexual assault has nothing to do with progressivism. Sexual assault has always existed as long as there have been people who cannot control themselves sexually when in a position of power over others. Are you going to say that someone sexually abusing a woman in the 6th century was a progressive?

It has nothing to do with being alpha male, either. Alpha males, which is a stupid bloody term, do not need to molest women against their will. That's the definition of being alpha male. It just makes you a disgusting human being.

Trump is not an alpha male. Jimmy Savile was not an alpha male. Bill Cosby is not an alpha male.

Think about it, Agustino. Donald Trump looked at a 10 year old girl and thought of making her into a sexual conquest when legal. He saw sexual potential in a 10 year old. You are defending that persons chances of becoming president. I would ask you how you became that sort of person, but I'm afraid I've already tried to make sense of it. I get you want some grand shift in American morality, however nonsensical that sounds to me, but maybe not by electing a potential child rapist and self confessed sexual predator to do it? Trump doesn't deserve what you want to give him. Wait another 4 years and see who can do it next time round. This evil you seem to see all around you isn't going anywhere. But that's because you put it there with this good vs evil mindset of yours.

The world is a fiery pit already. It's just that people have to wake up and understand it. We have to bring religion back. We have to bring social order back. We have to bring morality - including sexual morality back. We have to bring back family stability. We have to stop the proceedings of going for an abortion as if one is going to buy candy. — Agustino

How is a Trump presidency going to achieve this? Do you really think that Trump being President is going to stop people from having casual sex? How?

And how is a Trump presidency going to help stop abortion? The Supreme Court has already ruled that abortion is a constitutional right, and that's not something that the President can overrule. The best he can do is appoint a pro-life Justice to replace Scalia, hope that the Supreme Court agrees to consider the case again, hope that this new pro-life Justice disagrees with the previous decision (one can believe that abortion is immoral but still agree that it's allowed by the Constitution; as Scalia himself said "I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says."), and then hope that a majority of the other Justices think the same way.

So leaving aside the blatant hypocrisy in voting for a man you consider to be a sexual deviant in your fight against sexual deviancy, it's simply delusional to think that Trump being President is going to somehow bring back Christian sexual morality. That ship has long sailed. The U.S. has moved on (thankfully).

That's the definition of being alpha male. — WhiskeyWhiskers

Did you mean "that's not the definition of being alpha male"?

I meant alpha males, by definition, do not need to sexually assault women. Because by definition they're the kind of man a woman would want to have sexual contact with. Neither do they need to brag about it actually, because any 'alpha male' would not be insecure enough to feel the need to convince others of their status. They're confident and their actions speak for themselves. If you even believe this alpha male rubbish, that is.

I even hated writing that because there is obviously no such thing as one kind of man that all women want to sleep with. And it's so insulting to women to suggest that they'll be willing to sleep with any man because he's good looking, or that they'll let a man like Donald Trump grope them because he's rich and powerful. Which is why I think the term alpha male is so ridiculous.

I meant alpha males, by definition, do not need to sexually assault women. Because by definition they're the kind of man a woman would want to have sexual contact with. Neither do they need to brag about it actually, because any 'alpha male' would not be insecure enough to feel the need to convince others of their status. They're confident and their actions speak for themselves. If you even believe this alpha male rubbish, that is. — WhiskeyWhiskers

Ah, I see. I read it backwards.

As if progressives weren't more interested in equal access to education, eliminating discrimination, affordable healthcare, and creating economic opportunities for all regardless of their social class — Baden

And conservatives aren't interested in these I suppose? We don't need progressivism as it is practiced and understood today in order to be interested in all these other important considerations of the state. I haven't criticised progressivism for its attitudes on these issues in any case, so I don't know why you're throwing this red herring out there. I didn't say we need to stop progressivism because it encourages the elimination of discrimination, etc.

So, this post isn't aimed at him. It's just to state for the record that to understand progressivism and its impact on society, a quick internet search for the most progressive countries out there, a follow-up search for the term "Human Development Index", and a consideration of the latter's meaning and its correlations with the former could be useful in understanding why we are not dealing here with a cancer that needs the chemotherapy of a corrupt sexual predator with an insatiable narcissism to help excise it from the planet. — Baden

Oh so you apparently don't think the growth of technology itself, and improving economic conditions is the major cause of this? It's the ideology of progressivism... You should be aware first of all, that countries like Sweden have proeminent ultra-right groups that are a lot worse than you think I am. These people hate immigrants, and have even been involved in the murder of immigrants. In many other parts of central and northern Europe extremists very similar to the Nazis are rising up. Proeminent ultra-right groups that, by the way, I don't agree with, because they're not socially conservative. But they will rise up, and we may get another war, because some dumb progressives want to let all the immigrants in, and this annoys their own people. But they don't care what their people want - and so they let these nazis rise up. The nazis are the outcome of their own worldview - of its own shortcomings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3349890/Sweden-Home-IKEA-meatballs-ABBA-racism-Swedish-right-wing-went-joke-big-political-player-just-seven-years.html

These right wingers also share progressivism's sexual immorality, and I despise them - just to make that clear. So all your post is, is again some non-intellectual cursing and stomping of your feet. If you have anything useful to say that actually adds to the discussion please go ahead. But just to insult and claim some counterfactual statements about me, and base your thinking of certain countries on what you read in the corrupt media, instead of actually on having gone there - that's a shame.

This is really the heart it it. For all the moralising that Agustino does, he still doesn't understand what every normal, decent person so obviously gets without these grand moral theories of sexual sin. It's so warped. You don't knowingly elect a sexual predator to president. Trump should be put on trial, not into the fucking oval office. You don't give him the success and power he wants. — WhiskeyWhiskers

And I've agreed he should be put on trial and probably arrested - after his first term.

It is also so painfully obvious that sexual assault has nothing to do with progressivism. Sexual assault has always existed as long as there have been people who cannot control themselves sexually when in a position of power over others. Are you going to say that someone sexually abusing a woman in the 6th century was a progressive? — WhiskeyWhiskers

No, but I have never claimed any of this. I merely claimed progressivism removed sexual morality, and made a virtue out of promiscuity. I claimed that this is merely the outcome of that. Do you disagree?

It has nothing to do with being alpha male, either. Alpha males, which is a stupid bloody term, do not need to molest women against their will. That's the definition of being alpha male. It just makes you a disgusting human being. — WhiskeyWhiskers

He didn't do it against their will - they let him do it. How many times does one need to repeat that? It's true that he's abusing them, and they should never have let him do it - but they did. Because they too wanted to have sex with a rich and powerful person - like everyone else in a progressive culture, they wanted the social status that comes out of it. It's not my fault that they have continuously since the 1960s been removing all sexual morality and encouraging promiscuity as a source of self-esteem. Men like Donald Trump are the result of that. And what do you want to do? You want to get rid of him, but you want to keep on encouraging sexual promiscuity right? Because that's good for society - so long as they let you do it - but hey, they did let him do it. Is this the world you want to live in? Where men are encouraged as a source of value to have sex with as many women - and where women are encouraged similarly?

How is a Trump presidency going to achieve this? Do you really think that Trump being President is going to stop people from having casual sex? How? — Michael

I have said Trump personally and his administration will not improve sexual morality. But it will make the problem of sexual morality very clear to the public.

And how is a Trump presidency going to help stop abortion? The Supreme Court has already ruled that abortion is a constitutional right, and that's not something that the President can overrule. The best he can do is appoint a pro-life Justice to replace Scalia — Michael

Exactly.

it's simply delusional to think that Trump being President is going to somehow bring back Christian sexual morality. That ship has long sailed. The U.S. has moved on (thankfully). — Michael

That's what you progressives want to trick us to believe. You want us to give up - "the ship has already sailed - you'll never get your world back. Go back to sitting in your desk and bear it out - watch how your children abandon your values, just bear it out while we take your world" - who are you to say that? Do you know the future? Otherwise this is just propaganda. The truth is you hope that the ship has sailed - just like how I hope it hasn't.

Muhammad's laughing beneath his green dome. — Heister Eggcart

Well I have to start by saying that my knowledge of Islam is very limited so please bare that in mind. All that I know is from a few Muslim friends that I've made over the duration of my life and from what I hear in the mass-media. It's true that the mass-media paints a not very nice picture generally. I haven't personally studied the religion in any level of detail so I don't know to say if this is accurate. I'll merely talk about my experience with Muslim people that I've known. In general they were quite nice people - decent, kind and moral. They valued sexual morality - including abstaining from pre-martial sex, promiscuity, adultery and so forth. In fact - these people were ahead of most of the so called "Christians" I've known in terms of this. The only negative I really noticed in some - not all - is that they do insist - overtly or covertly - that you convert to their religion. But apart from this dogmatism, those that I know have been good people, at least in their behaviour towards me.

So when you say Muhammad is laughing - I don't know what to understand - because it seems to me, from the Muslims I know (none of them were of the sort of radical kind that we see ISIS being for example), that they do take their morality seriously - and they do share the Christian idea of what constitutes sexual morality - as do the other religions from my readings and experience. So I'm not sure what is true and what isn't true about Muhammad - but it seems that these people who follow him do take morality seriously.

You're never going to get that. You'll be searching for that forever, all the while propping up creeps like Trump in the delusion that he'll help fix the problem. It's quite frankly shocking how on one hand you say that the world is fallen, yet think it to be entirely "fixable", to coin some Trump terminology. — Heister Eggcart

"You're never going to get that" is the lie the progressives are telling us every single day. They want religious believers to sit down and accept their dominance over the world. And I don't want to do this. Why should religious believers sit down? They manipulate us - they say "Oh you are such moral people - you can't break your principles and vote for someone who doesn't represent you... you can't tell others that their way of life is immoral... you go back to sitting down while we reshape your world the way we want to... you just have to ride out the wave, don't worry, just take a seat - the boat has already left". That's what they're telling us. And obviously the truth is I don't know if Judaeo-Christian moral values can be brought back in Western society. But the complementary truth to this, is that the progressives don't know that they can't be brought back either. So all we have to do is take up the sword and fight for what we believe in - just like they're doing. They're doing exactly the same thing. Why should we let them do it? That's why they're beating us - that's why they're winning. I don't think the world is fixable - I hope it is, but I have no certainty in this. I will try to change it for the better.

We've lost for long enough. Religion has been losing for more than a hundread years. Why should we keep on losing? Because they're telling us, and brainwashing us from childhood that we've already lost, not to bother? I will bother - because even if we have already lost, it's honorable that we fight to the end - upholding the truth and the light. Isn't that what we're called to do as religious believers? That we will live proclaiming the truth, and fighting for the truth?

Us and them, them and us. It's like a child fitting together on a board two basic shapes that only have one possible arrangement and feeling comforted by the simplicity because he can understand it. Like a jigsaw puzzle with one piece black and one piece white. Your view of the world is so grossly oversimplified and abstract that it bears no relation to reality.

Us and them, them and us. It's like a child fitting together on a board two basic shapes that only have one possible arrangement and feeling comforted by the simplicity because he can understand it. Like a jigsaw puzzle with one piece black and one piece white. Your view of the world is so grossly oversimplified and abstract that it bears no relation to reality. — WhiskeyWhiskers

Well WW, tell me is there a conflict between the secular ideology of progressivism and religious believers judging by their creeds? Yes or no?

Look it's relatively simple. Progressives and conservatives agree on many things - including racism, discrimination, poverty, etc. They disagree on some profound aspects though - that have to do with society. These - in concrete terms - do not revolve in abstract disagreements - such as moral absolutism vs moral relativism, etc. These latter are just justifications for it. Do you agree? Ok, so if they don't lie in abstract disagreement, they must lie in practical ones. What are the practical disagreements? It's over behaviour - more specifically sexual behaviour because we agree on all other behaviour like theft, rape, murder, etc. The conservative wants to live in a society where sexual morality is respected. The progressive says well and good, do that, but we don't want to do that as well. Now this is itself is not a problem. But it does become a problem when we live in an infected culture like today's where having promiscuous sex has been turned into a virtue - you're the alpha male, you're desired, you're strong, you're sexually potent, etc. Why? Because conservatives cannot live in such a society. How can you raise up your children in such a world? They will learn that to be amongst the "cool" people, to have social status, you need to engage in immorality. That's the culture that is dominated by progressives. It's just the truth. So they shouldn't shy away from it. It's like having a community in your society which doesn't eat beef, but your society says that to have social status you must eat beef. There's a conflict there. So why do you refuse to recognize it?

Look at how the moderator says she's never heard people talk like Donald Trump. I really wonder what world she's living in. My biggest problem isn't that Donald Trump is like that - my biggest problem is that most men are like that. Almost everywhere I went I've heard men talk about their sexual exploits. How they grabbed this and that, what they did, etc. Hell even a work colleague while I was in UK asked me to grab his friend's ass when I was going to meet her for the first time! The media is so fucking fake pretending they don't know what world we're living in. They pretend like this sexual exploitation of women by men and the other way around doesn't go around daily in our societies. Like this isn't a source of self-esteem for people created by this very progressive society, which encourages one to get ask many men or women as possible. When a man asks them to go for a drink to his place - they know very well what it means - but they never admit it. Such hypocrisy! Unbelievable... unbelievable...

When they go to nightclubs and ask a girl to their home - and then they start kissing her, and she doesn't refuse, they don't call this sexual abuse (although it really is!). But when Donald Trump does it - "ahhh he abused them!!! He forced them! They thought they were going for employment!!". How shameful - and even more shameful that these people don't realise that it's not Donald Trump it's this disgusting immoral society that is the biggest problem (and they are part of it - very important!)

Well WW, tell me is there a conflict between the secular ideology of progressivism and religious believers judging by their creeds? Yes or no? — Agustino

Once you actually start to define the terms in detail, and point to the populations of actual people holding to those strict definitions, you begin to realise that these are extremely vague concepts that are significantly grey in reality because peoples diverse range of beliefs don't neatly map onto your simplistically defined categories. But you do not understand this point in spite of it being made to you repeatedly over the last few days by myself and others. It was remarkably enlightening when you said labelling, such as 'left' and 'right', "simplifies things and makes them easier to understand". You don't seem to possess the self-awareness to realise how revealing that admission was to the rest of us. Which is why I compared your thought to a child's when they feel comforted by the lack of complexity their understanding is required to grasp.

"This is also why I could be quite anxious, and also frequently worried about my health at small signs. But I've learned to train my judgement - to take a decision and stick to it - trust my judgement instead of doubt it. Now I'm very rarely if at all troubled by anxiety for example."

Do you not see what is starring you right in the face? If you define and think about the world in such a way that it's inherent complexity is deliberately removed, you're going to sleep easier at night because you feel you understand what is going on around you.

Once you actually start to define the terms in detail, and point to the populations of actual people holding to those strict definitions, you begin to realise that these are extremely vague concepts that are significantly grey in reality because peoples diverse range of beliefs don't neatly map onto your simplistically defined categories. — WhiskeyWhiskers

There are differences amongst, say Evangelical Christians, of course. But there is a core which is shared by all. Sexual morality for example is shared by all Christians - because it's part of their Holy text which guides them.

You don't seem to possess the self-awareness to realise how revealing that admission was to the rest of us. Which is why I compared your thought to a child's when they feel comforted by the lack of complexity their understanding is required to grasp. — WhiskeyWhiskers

No I deliberately ignored what you've said because I think it's a mischaracterisation and doesn't reflect the truth. What can I say about it other than that? It's just false. There are beliefs which unite entire groups of people. Not all beliefs will be shared, there will be many differences. But there are also similarities - which is what you ignore. If there was no common thing that all Christians shared - we couldn't call them Christians in the first place!

Sexual morality for example is shared by all Christians — Agustino

No it isn't! This is completely your own projection.

No it isn't! This is completely your own projection. — WhiskeyWhiskers

Does the Bible state that promiscuity, fornication, adultery and sex with women other than your wife is immoral?

Why should we keep on losing? Because they're telling us, and brainwashing us from childhood that we've already lost, not to bother? I will bother - because even if we have already lost, it's honorable that we fight to the end - upholding the truth and the light. Isn't that what we're called to do as religious believers? That we will live proclaiming the truth, and fighting for the truth? — Agustino

You don't own a monopoly on the truth, Agustino. Just because you're rabid about this or that doesn't mean you can be so authoritarian as to say everyone else is dead wrong. I also find it toilsome that you have the nerve to assume me some liberal peasant that has been brainwashed and manipulated, and that I just don't know it. Sorry, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I've sipped from a spiked glass of kool-aid and now cannot think freely.

I also find it toilsome that you have the nerve to assume me some liberal peasant that has been brainwashed and manipulated — Heister Eggcart

I haven't assumed you to be that, I said there's the tendency for all of us to be manipulated this way. Also what makes you think that I think of you as a "liberal peasant"?

Sorry, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I've sipped from a spiked glass of kool-aid and now cannot think freely. — Heister Eggcart

Sure. So I've asked you some questions in that post, so that we can have a conversation and think freely. Why don't you let me know what your position is on these issues. I'm curious honestly to know.