Are you saying that ideas do not exist? — Frank Apisa

They're not nonphysical. Nothing is.

YOU are not the determinant of what can or cannot exist. — Frank Apisa

The world is. I'm not going to pretend that I can't observe it.

Terrapin Station
8.2k

Are you saying that ideas do not exist? — Frank Apisa


They're not nonphysical. Nothing is. — Terrapin Station

Okay, if nothing is nonphysical...then any gods that exist are nonphysical also. But, like ideas, you cannot put a tie on 'em.

YOU are not the determinant of what can or cannot exist. — Frank Apisa


The world is. I'm not going to pretend that I can't observe it.

Then get "the world" to tell me what can and cannot exist. All I am hearing from is you right now...7.6 billion to go.

You are arguing like Devans right now, Terrapin...albeit in the opposite direction.

Okay, if nothing is nonphysical...then any gods that exist are nonphysical also. But, like ideas, you cannot put a tie on 'em. — Frank Apisa

I'm assuming you meant "Then any gods that exist are physical."

That's fine. As I said above: "[If we're talking about something that only has physical aspects, then] I don't know what we'd be talking about. [This] alternative would need to be specified better before I'd bother with it." The first thing I'd want specified is where whatever we're talking about is supposed to be located.

Then get "the world" to tell me what can and cannot exist. — Frank Apisa

We can in some cases determine with logic what can and cannot exist. That which the existence of which would imply a contradiction cannot exist. So that rules out a number of gods from the enquiry.

Options
Terrapin Station
8.2k

Okay, if nothing is nonphysical...then any gods that exist are nonphysical also. But, like ideas, you cannot put a tie on 'em. — Frank Apisa


I'm assuming you meant "Then any gods that exist are physical." — Terrapin Station

Don't assume.

I said what I meant to say.

That's fine. As I said above: "[If we're talking about something that only has physical aspects, then] I don't know what we'd be talking about. [This] alternative would need to be specified better before I'd bother with it." The first thing I'd want specified is where whatever we're talking about is supposed to be located.

If you are of the opinion that an IDEA is NOT nonphysical...then an entity god could be nonphysical. If a translation of your "nothing is nonphysical" is that the only things that are nonphysical are things that do not exist...then you are saying that ideas do not exist.

Your arguments here are absurd.

In any case, we can move on to something less in the area of YOU defining things.

You said, "In other words, in the case of a god, all the evidence we have so far shows no god to exist."

I asked you to furnish the single most important piece of evidence that shows that no gods exist.

Let's go there.

S
9.2k

Then get "the world" to tell me what can and cannot exist. — Frank Apisa


We can in some cases determine with logic what can and cannot exist. That which the existence of which would imply a contradiction cannot exist. So that rules out a number of gods from the enquiry. — S

S...respectfully as possible...I think it is best we not engage in any further discussions.

S...respectfully as possible...I think it is best we not engage in any further discussions. — Frank Apisa

You're free to do what you want, as am I. Freedom of expression. That you might have chosen to ignore me doesn't mean that I will stop commenting on your posts.

I said what I meant to say. — Frank Apisa

Okay, but what you said is "then any gods that exist are nonphysical also." I don't know how "also" makes sense, but again, the idea of a nonphysical anything is incoherent. So the idea of gods is incoherent, if they're nonphysical, as you say.

If you are of the opinion that an IDEA is NOT nonphysical...then an entity god could be nonphysical. — Frank Apisa

What in the world? How would anything being not nonphysical have any implication for something being nonphysical?

If a translation of your "nothing is nonphysical" is that the only things that are nonphysical — Frank Apisa

If nothing is nonphysical, then "things that are nonphysical" is x'ed out. There is nothing in that category.

are things that do not exist...

Things that don't exist do not exist. Obviously. In other words, there are no such things.

then you are saying that ideas do not exist.

No. I said that ideas are not nonphysical. Ideas exist. But ideas are not nonphysical. In other words, ideas are physical.

I asked you to furnish the single most important piece of evidence that shows that no gods exist. — Frank Apisa

Importance is subjective. I don't know what you're going to consider more important on this end.

I don't consider any piece of evidence more important than any other for this. I look on my desk. There are no gods there. I look on the sidewalk in front of my apartment. No gods there. None on the moon, either. Etc. All of equal importance to me. (And not very important at that, since the question of whether there are gods seems like a colossal waste of time to me, since the idea is so absurd/childish/ignorant.)

Terrapin Station
8.3k

I asked you to furnish the single most important piece of evidence that shows that no gods exist. — Frank Apisa


Importance is subjective. I don't know what you're going to consider more important on this end.

I don't consider any piece of evidence more important than any other for this. I look on my desk. There are no gods there. I look on the sidewalk in front of my apartment. No gods there. None on the moon, either. Etc. All of equal importance to me. — Terrapin Station

From what I gather...you are suggesting that since you cannot see any gods on on your desk, on the sidewalk in front of your apartment...

...that is evidence that gods do not exist.

Okay.

Tell me if you see an "idea" on your desk...or on the sidewalk in front of your apartment.

If not...are you saying that is evidence that ideas do not exist. Or are you able to see that it is ONLY evidence that you cannot see an idea on your desk or on the sidewalk in front of your apartment.

Tell me if you see any sentient beings from any planet circling the nearest 5 stars to Sol on your desk or on the sidewalk in front of your apartment.

If not...are you saying that is evidence that there are no sentient beings from any of those planets? Or are you able to see that it is ONLY evidence that you cannot see any sentient beings from any planet circling the nearest 5 stars to Sol on your desk or on the sidewalk in front of your apartment.

From what I gather...you are suggesting that since you cannot see any gods on on your desk, on the sidewalk in front of your apartment... — Frank Apisa

Not seeing, per se. No evidence of them.

Ideas aren't located on desks. They're brain phenomena. There's plenty of evidence that they're brain phenomena.

Maybe you'd want to suggest an alternate place to look for evidence of god phenomena?

Terrapin Station
8.3k

From what I gather...you are suggesting that since you cannot see any gods on on your desk, on the sidewalk in front of your apartment... — Frank Apisa


Not seeing, per se. No evidence of them.

Ideas aren't located on desks. They're brain phenomena. There's plenty of evidence that they're brain phenomena.

Maybe you'd want to suggest an alternate place to look for evidence of god phenomena? — Terrapin Station

YOU are the one claiming there is evidence that there are no gods.

So far, I have not seen any. You have not offered any evidence that there are no gods for consideration...only that you cannot see any on your desk or on the sidewalk in front of your apartment.

Please...just offer some of that evidence you claim exists that there are no gods.

YOU are the one claiming there is evidence that there are no gods — Frank Apisa

Correct. There is evidence that there are no gods. Everywhere we check--no evidence of any gods. That's evidence that there are none. That's evidence that something doesn't exist. You suggested that maybe we're looking in the wrong place. So I'm asking you to suggest where the right place to look might be.

Terrapin Station
8.3k

YOU are the one claiming there is evidence that there are no gods — Frank Apisa


Correct. There is evidence that there are no gods. Everywhere we check--no evidence of any gods. That's evidence that there are none. That's evidence that something doesn't exist. You suggested that maybe we're looking in the wrong place. So I'm asking you to suggest where the right place to look might be. — Terrapin Station

None of that is evidence that no gods exist.

The fact that no human can "check" and find something is NOT evidence that a thing does not exist. It is merely evidence that we humans cannot detect it.

I am still looking for you to produce any evidence that gods do not exist.

(HINT: I doubt there is ANY evidence that gods do not exist. I have grappled with this problem from both sides...and I have NEVER encountered any unambiguous evidence that no gods exist. For the record, I have NEVER encountered any unambiguous evidence that any gods DO exist either. (NOTE: Obviously, IF a creator god exists, EVERYTHING is evidence that the god exists...but equally obviously, it is FAR from unambiguous.)

So...I am still waiting. Give me a single piece of evidence that no gods exist. Let's discuss it.

None of that is evidence that no gods exist. — Frank Apisa

Yes it is. The only way it wouldn't be is if god is supposed to be located someplace where we haven't even checked. In lieu of specifying a location, or in a situation where god is supposed to be omnipresent, the more places we search but come up empty is the more evidence that there is no such thing as a god.

Hence, are you suggesting locations that we haven't checked yet?

The fact that no human can "check" and find something is NOT evidence that a thing does not exist. It is merely evidence that we humans cannot detect it. — Frank Apisa

There would need to be some plausible reason why it's not detectable. What's the plausible reason?

That doesn't just go for gods, it goes for everything.

There's no reason to believe that anything exists if there's no evidence for it, and there's reason to believe that it doesn't exist if searches do not turn it up. We'd need a plausible reason to believe that something isn't detectable in order to believe that.

Terrapin Station
8.3k

None of that is evidence that no gods exist. — Frank Apisa


Yes it is. The only way it wouldn't be is if god is supposed to be located someplace where we haven't even checked. In lieu of specifying a location, or in a situation where god is supposed to be omnipresent, the more places we search but come up empty is the more evidence that there is no such thing as a god. — Terrapin Station

If you want to think that because you see no gods on your desk or on the street in front of your apartment is evidence that no gods exist...

...then it is also evidence that nothing that you are not able to see on your desk or on the street in front of your apartment is also evidence that nothing else exists.

You are being particularly illogical.

Why is that?

There would need to be some plausible reason why it's not detectable. What's the plausible reason? — Terrapin

Because humans are not able to "detect" everything that exists?

It certainly appears we humans are not able to "detect" everything that exists.

That doesn't just go for gods, it goes for everything. — Terrapin

Exactly.

There's no reason to believe that anything exists if there's no evidence for it, and there's reason to believe that it doesn't exist if searches do not turn it up. We'd need a plausible reason to believe that something isn't detectable in order to believe that. — Terrapin

I do not do "believing."

Anyway...if you want to blindly guess that no gods exist...you are free to do so. I will defend your right to do so. If you are going to pretend there is some logical reason for doing so...I am going to laugh at it.

If you are still monitoring this thread, Maureen...

...I think your OP question if being answered rather strongly by Tarrapin.

Some people just CANNOT...or ARE UNWILLING...to accept "I do not know."

It seems to cause them physical and mental distress at times.

I hope that with my little knowledge I can put forward a few ideas about existence of God.

1. In every corner of the world and since we can see more than our planet then in the far beyond as well there are works of order, law and purpose.
2. Every such order and creation calls for an omniscient creator.

Now every creation with the little knowledge they have can see around themselves and can come to understanding of what is going and similarly now these are proved scientifically as well such as:

The planet that we live in and to its fullest extent and then its comparison to the solar system that we are in. The solar system being a part of the galaxy and that our galaxy of having more than 100 billions of stars and the sun being a star of it.

On the other hand in this great universe the count of galaxies are unlimited and yet many had to be discovered and in fact most of them will not be discovered at all and the recent image released of Blackhole.....

The Newton's theory of gravity is governed by all stars and in every planet there is the existence of these forces. As he has put it in his words "Don't doubt the creator, because it is inconceivable that accidents alone could be the controller of the Universe." Also he said "The more i study science the more I believe in God, This most beautiful system of the Sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful being". Same goes for Einstein.....

If you want to think that because you see no gods on your desk or on the street in front of your apartment is evidence that no gods exist...

...then it is also evidence that nothing that you are not able to see on your desk or on the street in front of your apartment is also evidence that nothing else exists. — Frank Apisa

Again, it's not just about seeing. Can we get that straight first? Let's see if we can settle anything.

I like this where it is going>>>>>

Terrapin Station
8.3k

If you want to think that because you see no gods on your desk or on the street in front of your apartment is evidence that no gods exist...

...then it is also evidence that nothing that you are not able to see on your desk or on the street in front of your apartment is also evidence that nothing else exists. — Frank Apisa


Again, it's not just about seeing. Can we get that straight first? Let's see if we can settle anything. — Terrapin Station

Change "see" to "sense."

No problemo.

Well, it's not even limited to sense. At least not directly. It includes any sort of evidential detection from any instrument, too. For example, something like a spectrometer, or an oscilloscope, or a neutrino detector--any sort of instrument we can imagine (and that we have reason to believe is responding to some objective phenomenon as a means of detection).

Terrapin Station
8.3k
↪Frank Apisa


Well, it's not even limited to sense. At least not directly. It includes any sort of evidential detection from any instrument, too. For example, something like a spectrometer, or an oscilloscope, or a neutrino detector--any sort of instrument we can imagine. — Terrapin Station

Then change "see" to "sense, either directly or by any other sort of instrument we puny humans can imagine."

Gonna come out the same, Terrapin.

Don't you get that by now.

You could have changed "see" to "detect"...

...and YOU still come up with "If humans cannot detect it...it does not exist"...which is absurd.

We have no idea of how much human intelligence is able to detect...and it is quite possible that on a continuum with "all that exists" being one mile long...what humans are able to detect using instruments and all that crap...may be less than 1/100th of an inch.

The answer to Maureen's question apparently is: Because some people simply will not accept "I do not know" as a response.

...and YOU still come up with "If humans cannot detect it...it does not exist"...which is absurd. — Frank Apisa

So, you're believing first off that some things are not going to be detectable in principle, right?

Terrapin Station
8.3k

...and YOU still come up with "If humans cannot detect it...it does not exist"...which is absurd. — Frank Apisa


So, you're believing first off that some things are not going to be detectable in principle, right? — Terrapin Station

I do not do "believing."

If you are asking me if my guess is that we humans are not even close to understanding or being able to detect EVERYTHING about existence...

...YES...that is my guess.

At very least, it certainly is possible.

Do you have a guess on the issue?

I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

Yeah, you do. Everyone does. The word(s) you use for it are irrelevant.

So what would be the basis for the notion of some things being undetectable in principle?

Terrapin Station
8.3k

I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa


Yeah, you do. Everyone does. — Terrapin Station

I don't!

The word(s) you use for it are irrelevant. — Terrapin

The words are paramount.,

I makes guesses...I call them "guesses." I make suppositions...I call them "suppositions." I make estimates...I call them "estimates." I have opinions...I call them "opinions."

Some people refer to their guesses, suppositions, estimates, and opinions...as beliefs.

I do not.

They do "believing."

I don't.

So what would be the basis for the notion of some things being undetectable in principle?

If you are asking me about something I wrote...quote what I wrote. I will flesh it out my words if that is what you are asking.

If you are asking me about something I wrote...quote what I wrote. I will flesh it out my words if that is what you are asking. — Frank Apisa

I'm asking you about this:

"...and YOU still come up with "If humans cannot detect it...it does not exist"...which is absurd."

How are you getting to "there are things that are undetectable in principle"

I cannot possibly believe that is what you believe.

Terrapin Station
8.3k

If you are asking me about something I wrote...quote what I wrote. I will flesh it out my words if that is what you are asking. — Frank Apisa


I'm asking you about this:

"...and YOU still come up with "If humans cannot detect it...it does not exist"...which is absurd."

How are you getting to "there are things that are undetectable in principle" — Terrapin Station

The reason I wrote that it is absurd to suppose, as you do, that if humans cannot detect it, it does not exist...

...is because the notion IS absurd.

Pluto existed long before any humans detected it; atoms existed long before any humans detected them.

We have no idea of what exists that we still have not detected.

Your paraphrasing of what I wrote...is even more absurd.