Certainly not? That's your answer?No, certainly not. It's more akin to holocaust denial than holocaust promotion. — unenlightened
Yes, indeed there are many others.I am focusing very narrowly on a couple of things here, but I am not alone in my criticism, and this is not a new criticism of Scruton. So my own dementia is not really a factor. My arguments and complaints are mirrored by others citing other things he has said at other times. — unenlightened
But the rhetorical trick you use is that if Scuton talks about people fearing attacks by Islamists, that SOMEHOW means that he refutes the persecution of Muslims! Does Scruton say that? Where?the wiki list I linked constitutes a real persecution of Islam, not an invention, and not a rhetorical trick. — unenlightened
The problem is the conflation, which makes things worst. It creates the percieved if not actual "PC-culture" environment of "if you open your mouth on this subject, you are persecuted", that actually nobody really is truly promoting. Yet this conflation of people like Scruton as being the malevolent Islamophobe / anti-Islamist spreading the gospel of bigotry if not racism simply makes things worse as there indeed are those kind of people.And it is true that muslims are persecuted by genuine islamaphobes. But I don't think its fair to conflate those who kill and torture muslims with those who wish to discuss differences in values etc. Islam encourages a discussion with the dis-believers, how else are we to call people to our religion if we stop them from talking and asking questions? — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Do you think that an academic philosopher like Scruton would deny that Muslims have been persecuted? That makes him the 'holocaust denier'? — ssu
I don't think I am doing that, and i don't think that is being done by every other critic of Scruton.If one talks let's say the bad things of X, then I MUST be praising the virtues and turning a blind eye on the bad thing Y has done. It doesn't make sense. — ssu
No. What I am complaining about is that he is down-playing (as in completely ignoring) it, while up-playing the atrocities of Muslim extremists, in a way that gives comfort to rightwing extremists. And his talk of George Soros having an Empire is similarly loose and inflammatory. — unenlightened
I don't have to make that decision, and have no recommendation to make. I am criticising his writing. I wouldn't recommend him as a moderator, if that tells you anything. — unenlightened
I don't. I think it is a good thing for philosophy professors to express unpopular ideas, and defend them with reasoned argument to the extent that they are reasonably defensible. Being provocative is something for trashy journalists, that I'm sure Scruton himself would abjure.I think it's a good thing for philosophy professors to be provocative. — Terrapin Station
Students need to practice coming up with objections/counterarguments — Terrapin Station
Well I've done my bit with Scruton, over to you to deal with the above. — unenlightened
For all intensive purposes, I am a European, with European heritage. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Regarding Soros and Orbán. I don't know enough about them or their comments to say anything about them. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
With regards to your accusation that I'm proselytising — Mr Phil O'Sophy
And with regards to your accusations against my prophet, as they are quite heated topics that require a lot of patience and time to delve into, I will be doing a thread on that once I have finished university. So you will be welcome to comment on that once I have it posted. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
The moment you converted to islam, you denied your European heritage and embraced the moslem heritage. Enjoy your moslem heritage, but please do it outside Europe. Islam is not a part of European heritage. — sunknight
A spokesman for the Ministry of Housing said: “Prof Sir Roger Scruton has been dismissed as chairman of the Building Better, Building Beautiful commission with immediate effect, following his unacceptable comments.”
Theresa May’s spokeswoman said the communities secretary, James Brokenshire, had sacked Scruton in a phone call. She said: “These comments are deeply offensive and completely unacceptable, and it is right that he has been dismissed.”
The interview prompted Labour to repeat its call from five months ago for Scruton to be sacked after it emerged that he had described Jews in Budapest as part of a “Soros empire”.
Dawn Butler, the shadow equalities secretary, said Scruton’s new comments were “despicable and invoke the language of white supremacists”.
Tell Mama, the anti-bigotry campaign, welcomed Scruton’s dismissal but raised questions about why he had been appointed in the first place.
Its director, Iman Atta, said: “Such dehumanising language falls far below the standards of those who advise government and undermine the struggle against Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hatred, antisemitism and racism.
Tory MPs including Tom Tugendhat and Johnny Mercer had joined calls for Scruton’s dismissal.
A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said: “As the Conservative party faces its latest crisis on Islamophobia, it cannot continue with false promises to take the issue seriously … The reality is that these concerns will continue to recur until trust is rebuilt through – in part – an independent inquiry into Islamophobia in the party.”
I didn't deny it. Its still apart of me. Which is only made clear by the fact that I admit that I am of Polish/Scottish decent, born and raised in England. I can't delete that, its something engrained into my being. Also, being muslim is a religious choice, being European is a biological/geographical fact. One is a choice, the other isn't. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Like I said, I do plan on leaving. But this is my home and I'm here as long as I need to be. Christianity wasn't a part of European heritage once. I'm sure many pagans said the same thing when people began converting to it as well. After all, it too, like islam, originated in the Middle East. Why are you in favour of Christianity if it has such similar roots? Are you a pagan? Would you tell christians to leave on the same basis? If not why? — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Not as Alien as you think my friend. The values the west has accepted over the past 70 or so years are much more alien to the western heritage than the values held by Islam. Things have changed so drastically over the past century in Europe, that what you seek to persevere is something completely new and counter to your roots. Islam has much more in common with our history than the modern age does: — Mr Phil O'Sophy
again, you're conflating categories. I'm a European muslim. If I go any where in the world, they won't refer to me as middle eastern because I'm a muslim. I look and sound like a British person. I have blonde hair and green eyes. I can't stop being European, thats not how it works. I stopped being Christian, and gave up being an atheist. These are things you can cease to be when you no longer prescribe to them. But this can't be said with regards to biological and geographical heritage.
You're welcome to give an argument as to why you think I'm wrong. But like I say, I think the problem is that you are misunderstanding the difference between where someone is from and what they believe. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Yes, it was an accusation, and as I explained in my response, you're wrong. Thats a comment on how muslims can only do dawah if they encourage conversation. That does not mean I'm doing dawah now. Like I say, it was relevant to the discussion on this thread, and as proselytising is against the forum rules, I'm sure if it is to be considered as such the moderators will pull me up on it. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
I'm not telling you to embrace pedophilia. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Also, there are some misconceptions about the fact that because Mohammad married someone at X years old, that it translates to mean that it is an obligation that muslims marry girls at X years old. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Knowledge requires that it be based on knowing. What you've stated is a belief, and if the evidence suggests that your belief is incorrect, then you would be terribly mistaken to consider it knowledge. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
When you will point me to some members who chose to study Plato and Aristotle in moslem countries, I will begin reading your link. — sunknight
Multiculturalism and postmodernism which is how leftists try to destroy European culture is as alien as islam is. — sunknight
The only problem is you try to deny that the European region has a culture of its own. I've got news for you though, it does have one and it's not compatible with islamic culture. Those who embrace the islamic culture, have effectively denied their European one, no matter how blonde their hair is or what their passport says. — sunknight
And you're welcome to express it, if you make the effort to be constructive about it and try to philosophise — Mr Phil O'Sophy
You could say: — Mr Phil O'Sophy
has made it very clear that you can express such views. It's not what you've said specifically but your form and how you've presented yourself as an extremely aggressive interlocutor, thats unwilling to justify his claims, offer any detailed argumentation, or show any consideration to consider the arguments being put forward in response to your claims without simply outright dismissing them while again, not showing any justification as to why they should be dismissed other than referring to them as 'post-modern' or 'leftist'. Which is.... — Mr Phil O'Sophy
I've done nothing different than most here habitually do — sunknight
I get your angry and you have your reasons why. I understand. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
You then have to give the a concrete example of the downplaying or ignoring a question put to him. So the interviewer really has to ask something that Scruton really avoids. And I ought to emphasize just what the whole topic of the discussion was!No. What I am complaining about is that he is down-playing (as in completely ignoring) it, while up-playing the atrocities of Muslim extremists, in a way that gives comfort to rightwing extremists. — unenlightened
And how inflammatory is it to talk about the Koch brothers having an Empire or the Mercer family? And as George Soros is from Hungary, it's no wonder that he has ties to the country. Here you should really concentrate on what Scruton actually says. NOT what some alt-right conspiracy theorist alleges Scruton to have said. I assume that obviously the topic of the discussion was Hungary and it's political situation.And his talk of George Soros having an Empire is similarly loose and inflammatory. — unenlightened
Ok, so discussing a topic that conspiracy theorists make their absurd theories is 'knowingly lending to abhorrent ideas'. Well, this is again an example of the political tribalism and show the inability in handling issues openly.he is equivocally but knowingly lending legitimacy to such abhorrent ideas. — unenlightened
Good points.I agree. It also distracts us from seeing people who are islamophobic, because we keep looking in the wrong direction. Islamophobe's tend to be not so vocal out of fear of persecution. They already believe in this major conspiracy that the muzzie's are taking over, and so due to the fear bottle it up. In some cases this leads to them lashing out with violent actions rather than being able to work through their prejudices because they've been isolated into echo chambers (either voluntarily or through blanket bans on social networks) where everyone tells them they're right, and offers zero intellectual engagement or push back that may have been exactly what they needed in order to free them of their prejudices and bigotry. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Actually it's not strange. Just think of putting everything you don't like together and assume it makes a coherent entity. Eases the ranting about it.sunknight
its strange that you would call a conservative muslim (a moral objectivist), a post-modern leftist. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Scruton never said 'Jewish intelligentsia networks', which would have nasty connotations, implying the age-old belief in a Jewish conspiracy. He spoke of 'Budapest intelligentsia' and 'networks around the Soros empire'. To me at least, that has very different connotations. — andrewk
What the heck would "antisemitic" refer to if either of those are sufficient to be antisemitic? (Not that he even used the phrase "Jewish intelligentsia networks," but we can pretend that he did.) — Terrapin Station
I thought he was specifically claiming that child marriages can occur with muslims? — Mr Phil O'Sophy
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