If that's going to be your attitude, then there's no reason to continue this discussion. — NKBJ

So be it.

The short answer to the titular question is that it does and it is called Feminism.

#weinersout

I agree, but the question raised by the original post was "should a men's rights movement exist?"

My thing is why should it exist? If it does exist, like feminism will it speak to a certain group of men or all men? Considering that the male perspective has been at the forefront of society since the beginning of civilization I question at what point am I as a man in need of male rights when in fact historically my country of is just beginning to treat me as a human being, a civilian?

In other words how can I get behind a movement about my gender when I'm still facing a battlefront of what I look like? — Anaxagoras

Perhaps the reason is just that few will get a lofty academic position to study "male studies". And the university leadership will think: "Well, we have a woman studies department, so we cannot be intolerant and not have a "male studies" or "men's studies", so let's give them some financing. And to get their voices heard (and funding), perhaps some "male study" people will start talking about 'male rights'. Some of them will likely be deemed as misogynists and accised to be some kind of counter movement to feminism. Perhaps they get their funding from right-wing groups.

Anyway, in the academia they don't have to speak in any way at all to the ordinary man. It's just this hustle in the academia.

For example, the Muslim-world doesn't really treat women that well and could call our attention, more than it does now. — ritikew

They don't treat gay men that well, either. Or gay women. Or Christians. Or atheists. Or Westerners.

The short answer to the titular question is that it does and it is called Feminism. — Banno

A misnomer then.

But does she know what it's like to be unable to express emotions, things as simple as fear and pain, without the possibility of being outcast and labeled weak? Does she know what it's like to have pent up aggression with no way of relieving it, and to be ostracized as dangerous and problematic when that aggression shows? To fear being accused of rape, and labeled a monster even when found innocent? — Not Steve

To all of those questions, no. And yet feminism focusses on the position into which women have been forced by men. Masculinism (if I may call it that) is not a position that women, or any other minority, have forced upon men. Finally, the things you complain about are the crimes that men commit against women, and (like all other crimes) the innocent might be accused. If our courts work properly (???), the innocent will be released. If men have problems, they need to learn to live with them, to control them and themselves. As a human, you are required not to murder any/all other humans. As a man, you are required not to rape women. In both cases, you are required to practise restraint. Do you see a problem with this? I don't...

I don't have a problem with there being a "men's rights" movement, but at present, it seems kind of dumb to have one.

It is quite funny if you look at women’s rights being both the assertion of women’s masculinity and men’s femininity.

It is worth considering that although we consider the masculine as male and the feminine as female, this is not strictly the case how these terms are defined.

I don’t see the point in a “Men’s Rights Movement” as I cannot honestly see how it would benefit human society. I’m already skeptical about the how far any rights movement should push once their main aims are met. I do worry that “feminism” has perhaps started to overreach a little - that said young women should be encouraged to knowledge and perhaps even be given financial help with education once they’ve had children (this I feel to be of gar greater importance outside of the west for numerous reasons concerning the environment and population control).

The double edged sword with the possible “overreaching” in western societies is that it both send a message to women in other countries that they can fight back and it may also belittle their views of “feminism” if they see some of the more delusional claims of the extreme end of the scale (which undoubtedly get the headlines more due to sensationalism.)

erhaps the reason is just that few will get a lofty academic position to study "male studies". And the university leadership will think: "Well, we have a woman studies department, so we cannot be intolerant and not have a "male studies" or "men's studies", so let's give them some financing. — ssu

Well the problem with that is academics especially female academics will perhaps argue from the philosophical position that we have learned for so long about the world through men, and that history has spoken about the human accomplishments through men, it would seem rhetorical academically to set up a class to learn about men when we do already in general study. Men are so over represented by academia it wouldn't make sense.

The same would be said about "Caucasian studies" some students have argued why we don't have one at my previous university at one point while I attended. Of course the idea was shot down but the traditional argument is that Caucasians in the U.S. are so over represented and that historically all systems had represented the Caucasian and given the historical account of the civil rights movement and its evolution, it wouldn't make sense academically to talk about the white male perspective in America when we already study that anyway in general study.

I don’t see the point in a “Men’s Rights Movement” as I cannot honestly see how it would benefit human society. — I like sushi

Currently I don't see a benefit to both to humanity. Unless we come from a position of intersectionality, which we don't which is a problem I don't see both as a benefit to humanity.

I don't have a problem with there being a "men's rights" movement, but at present, it seems kind of dumb to have one. — Terrapin Station

Yes, it does seem kind of dumb, I agree. That's probably most people's initial reaction. It was certainly mine. But then I began to really think about it. Is this reaction a good thing? If there's an injustice which needs redressing, isn't it a good thing to call attention to it?

But really, I agree with others who have made the point that identity politics is not the best approach. If equality is the goal, then let's approach this with that aim, and with the method of looking at all issues, not women's issues over others, not men's issues over others. Let's be fair. Let's turn the spotlight where it's needed, and not discriminate unfairly.

And "feminism" really isn't the best name for this seeking of equality. It also has now gained a bad reputation, and has become something of a dirty word. The excesses of modern far left politics have fucked things up and given the opposition plenty of ammunition. People like Ben Shapiro then come along and exploit this quite effectively. He has wide appeal.

The short answer to the titular question is that it does and it is called Feminism. — Banno

Nope that is the conditioned answer. I'm an egalitarian, and quite frankly as well as technically that is NOT feminism.

I think he might be referring to Men putting weight behind the original Feminist movement?

I think he might be referring to Men putting weight behind the original Feminist movement? — I like sushi

Is this an insinuation or you know?

For example, the Muslim-world doesn't really treat women that well and could call our attention, more than it does now. — ritikew

But women still face issues in the West. Women are still vilified online, at work place, in the occupational setting etc. Our issues concerning men's rights and women's rights are what I would call "first world" problems. You label the Muslim world as if all 50 Muslim countries deny women rights. I think we all forget Islam when it came to social rights among the Abrahamic faiths spearheaded these issues long before Middle Age Christianity began to address them.

They don't treat gay men that well, either. Or gay women. Or Christians. Or atheists. Or Westerners. — S

Neither does the west. Just because we aren't actively throwing gay people off buildings or performing public executions does not mean the west is significantly better. Excuse my French, but there are gay men/women trans men/women still getting their ass whooped on the streets for their orientation. There are still Christians shooting at Jews and Muslims and are attacking black churches.

The short answer to the titular question is that it does and it is called Feminism. — Banno

Given what I known about feminism at large, that’s a very astute summative statement.

All the same, most self-labeled “true/real men” associate most everything regarding femininity to a weakness of mind and body. As in, “women are emotional” and such. Thereby detesting this “–ism” that gets attached to “feminine” and which seeks to be of equal importance to masculinity. To these men feminism is, or at least symbolizes, a direct affront to their social power of superiority relative to women. So addressing their interests via feminism is rather mute.

That aside, even when not addressing those who view male superiority over women to be a natural/god-given right (plenty of these worldwide), there’s still an oddness to addressing men’s issues via the label of feminism:

To try to make my point, I’ll use myself as one honest example: I’d love to find a lifelong mate that at least in part personifies Elizabeth Stanton’s spirit; and so she would be quite proud and dignified in calling herself a feminist—despite all the spin-mongering against feminism that our present culture offers. I’d share her sentiments and ethics regarding the issues of feminism. But I’d still feel odd in declaring myself to be a feminist. This is because I’m a male and value those beneficial masculine attributes that typically pertain to the male sex. There is no doubt that feminist women such as Elizabeth Stanton value the same beneficial masculine attributes in men that an equalitarian such as myself does. Feminism, after all, is not anti-masculinity. But, nevertheless, there’s something amiss with labeling a man feminine, this rather than masculine … and this is something which the term “feminism”, as a term (rather than a historic movement), often tends to imply culturally. Especially since our culture is in part composed of those antagonistic to equality between the sexes.

In short, I’m pro-feminism (as per Elizabeth Stanton, who historically epitomizes the movement and its aims … one will notice that it extends beyond the concerns of a particular race of economic class), but can’t feel comfortable labeling myself a feminist.

Just as former liberals are now labeled progressives to stand apart from neo-liberalism, it seems that feminism would be benefited by a new term so as to more easily make its point: an equality of worth between the biological and sometimes psychological differences of the sexes.

All the same, pleasantly humbled to see other males that don't bash feminism. :up:

I'm an egalitarian, and quite frankly as well as technically that is NOT feminism. — Anaxagoras

Here’s the problem with that statement:

Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the genders. — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Camille Paglia feminism all the way.

Camille Paglia feminism [...] — Merkwurdichliebe

As it happens, I'm no expert on the modern shenanigans of feminism; just now read up a little on this quoted person. But, yea, bathwater gets dirty after awhile, so out it goes ... just as long as it doesn't get confused for the baby. :razz:

Neither does the west. Just because we aren't actively throwing gay people off buildings or performing public executions does not mean the west is significantly better. Excuse my French, but there are gay men/women trans men/women still getting their ass whooped on the streets for their orientation. There are still Christians shooting at Jews and Muslims and are attacking black churches. — Anaxagoras

Just how far gone are you? You cannot see that throwing people from buildings IS FAR worse than a beating, and the rarity of the occurrence (or any act of bigotry towards gays) in the two cultures are not even close. Instead what do you do? Jump track to the False Equivalence Express. Staggering.

But, yea, bathwater gets dirty after awhile, so out it goes ... just as long as it doesn't get confused for the baby. :razz: — javra

Lol

Just throw out the baby, keep the bathwater.

Just throw out the baby, keep the bathwater. — Merkwurdichliebe

Hm. How do you find that that could logically work? Throwing out the aim of an equality between sexes while yet preserving its modern-day outcomes within society …

Besides, disposing of babies down the sewer doesn’t sit too well with most people … this as metaphors go.

Is there something lost in interpretation?

No, you are accurate, I was just being facetious and satirical.

Oh. For the record, I was being darkly humored as I sometimes get. :wink:

Besides, disposing of babies down the sewer doesn’t sit too well with most people … this as metaphors go. — javra

I found that funny.

:grin: funniness sometimes happens. cool

Here’s the problem with that statement:

Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the genders.
— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism — javra

Ah yes Wikipedia the go-to website

I'm going to use the source from a writer and self-declared feminist:

"The movement was given the name ‘feminism’ because it focuses on the gender inequality issues that impact women. Just like any other civil rights category, feminism is a term used to show that one supports women’s equality and wants to address the serious amount of gender discrepancies they face daily. It does not take away from other civil rights matters.

Feminism is not called Humanism or Egalitarianism because Feminism, Humanism and Egalitarianism are three distinct theories."

Also the author later says:

"Feminism was given its name because it began as a socio-political movement to achieve gender equality for females and through its own rhetoric has become a movement to achieve equality for all persons regardless of gender."

Source:https://www.progressivewomensleadership.com/feminism-why-not-egalitarianism-or-humanism/

Any gender-specific form of egalitarianism is not complete humanism because the experiences and oppression of women do not speak in terms of the experiences and oppression I've experienced or any other male. I'm sure modern feminists wouldn't call the men's rights movement a part of egalitarianism due to the historical impact of patriarchy, with good reason and also with bias. The problem more importantly with allocating feminism with egalitarianism is definition and as defined earlier by the feminist writer, it is an equality based philosophy geared at addressing the socio-political, and economic oppression of women. This by definition, and my personal experiences alone does not speak for me.

As one commentator had said in the listed website I cited:

"Gender equality is a step for human equality, not an alternative to it."

I'm an egalitarian, — Anaxagoras

White middle aged middle class cis straight able males tend to call themselves egalitarian.

Odd, since we generally do not act as if this were so.

Just how far gone are you? You cannot see that throwing people from buildings IS FAR worse than a beating, and the rarity of the occurrence (or any act of bigotry towards gays) in the two cultures are not even close. — DingoJones

I'm sorry excuse me for reminding people of the exordium of introducing how the pot met the kettle. Of course I think being killed for your sexual orientation, race, religion, disability, gender, or species for extremist views is morally wrong. I want to also apologize further because in addition to that, I work in a hospital and most of my time is done in the emergency department where people of homosexual orientation as well as encountering those in the prostitute profession are assaulted daily. Of course being killed is worse than a beating, but the fact remains that being assaulted for the aforementioned identities period is bad.

Instead what do you do? Jump track to the False Equivalence Express. Staggering. — DingoJones

No. I was saying that its a double standard to look at Muslim cultures when it happens all the times here in the States and in other western countries. I think what you're hell bent on is seeing it in the news as proof of a daily occurrence and if that is true then that is another animal to discuss especially when it comes to what the media wants to highlight and doesn't. I'm merely looking at it from a general issue not specifics.