Rationality in this context allows us to set a measure, and draw conclusions from it, but outside of that context, it is meaningless or impotent. There is nothing forcing me or anyone else to adopt whatever measure you happen to present to us. I don't think you're capable of demonstrating a measure that's some sort of super measure that's absolute. The holy grail of all measures! — S
Wow. OK. How then is the quality of sapience in any way rational to uphold? Or is sapience an irrational concept? — javra
It has nothing to do with sapience, it has to do with aesthetic value. — S
Are you, or are you not, saying that if something is more sapience-oriented, then it is of better value, or greater aesthetic value? — S
That's all I need to know, because that won't ever work for the reasons I've explained. — S
The question remains beside the point. — S
Yes. To recap:
P: We as sapient beings value sapience
C: Artwork that is of greater sapience is therefore of greater aesthetic value to us
an argument, that's all — javra
Ah, but the reasons you've explained are pivoted around the rationality of using sapience as a measure. Hence:
The question remains beside the point.
— S
... is completely fallacious.
Is "sapience" a rational concept despite not being measurable via a metric stick or some such? — javra
But does originality equate to better, I would say so — Merkwurdichliebe
beauty and emotional power are not "measurable" because they are not quantities. — Janus
some works embody them more powerfully, more subtly, more intelligently, more authentically and so on, than others. — Janus
To say this is not sophistry, but to express something I know from experience. — Janus
plus a few seconds of the 5th (that scene in the Simpson's where the whole town gets up to leave the symphony after 5 seconds of Da Da da Daaaa nails it). — ZhouBoTong
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the morality of illegal drug use. — Noah Te Stroete
As long as one can handle one’s responsibilities, then I feel like illegal drug use is not a matter of morality, but there are other considerations such as damaging the health of the body and giving money to evil drug cartels. That said, wouldn’t a better healthcare system and legalizing drugs help assuage these issues? — Noah Te Stroete
But what are they, exactly. I know, it's pain to call for exactitude, here, but it's the correct standard. Are you associated in any way with anyone who may suffer because of you drug use? Can you guarantee to control your drug use and it's effects on you and others? And if you fail, who pays your bills?As long as one can handle one’s responsibilities, — Noah Te Stroete
Somewhere we are struggling with language. If they cannot be measured, how can they be "more"? Prove it? and I don't mean empirically, I mean how would you even begin? — ZhouBoTong
But what are they, exactly. I know, it's pain to call for exactitude, here, but it's the correct standard. Are you associated in any way with anyone who may suffer because of you drug use? Can you guarantee to control your drug use and it's effects on you and others? And if you fail, who pays your bills? — tim wood
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the morality of illegal drug use. — Noah Te Stroete
I buy this. And you may care to investigate alternative therapies. "Drooling idiot" was the sel-descriptive phrase of choice of a person in a similar position. With some help he found it was not his only option, and he was able to make the change. Maybe a mental health professional? Psychiatrists are MDs that have evolved to function as drug prescribers for the real mental-health professionals who are not licensed to prescribe.So, drugs can be bad whether legal or illegal. — Noah Te Stroete
I buy this. And you may care to investigate alternative therapies. "Drooling idiot" was the sel-descriptive phrase of choice of a person in a similar position. With some help he found it was not his only option, and he was able to make the change. Maybe a mental health professional? Psychiatrists are MDs that have evolved to function as drug prescribers for the real mental-health professionals who are not licensed to prescribe.
(That's right, I hold psychiatrists to be MDs and not real mental-health professionals. Certainly some can be, but for psychiatrists it's an uphill fight in part because of their basic medical training, and in part because of the kind of people many doctors are and have to be, to be doctors. The medical training emphasizes the "medical model," which in simplest terms means that you're a patient; you're a problem; and it's the doctor's business to solve problems, i.e., you.) So if you've been legally drugged in a bad way, and you have even the slightest hope and suspicion that life can be better, then go for it! Because it can be!) — tim wood
I would say that that's naive, unless you just mean to express an opinion. — S
I'm just expressing opinion, its not necessarily true, it's just one perspective amongst a vast web of perspectives, hopefully with the effect of inciting more useless debate. — Merkwurdichliebe
wouldn’t a better healthcare system and legalizing drugs help assuage these issues? — Noah Te Stroete
Can you guarantee to control your drug use and it's effects on you and others? — tim wood
Can you guarantee to control your drug use and it's effects on you and others? — tim wood
You offered us once a personal account where you got wasted and belligerent to the point the police were involved. Obviously your belligerence was immoral, but wouldn't you say your decision to get wasted by itself was as well, even had you not become belligerent, just due to the fact that you recklessly exposed the public to a wild eyed S with no rational self control? Or do you maintain even your belligerence was excusable, as it was not really S doing those things, but a Mr. Hyde occupying your body? — Hanover
The obvious question in response to that would be: to what extent? Complete control in every situation where a recreational drug has been taken is both physically and practically impossible. To the extent that it accords with my sense of right and wrong, and personal responsibility, and my liberalism? I can try my best, and that's all you can justifiably expect of me. You might have a different sense of right and wrong, and personal responsibility, and you might be more of a conservative, but you're not right by default. — S
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