If, however, you are asking if I am of the opinion that there are NO facts which substantively and unambiguously point to "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods".... — Frank Apisa

That's not what I'm asking. You don't need "substantively and umabiguously" for something not to be just a blind guess. For it to not just be a blind guess it simply has to be based on some support--some evidence, some logical argument, etc.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

If, however, you are asking if I am of the opinion that there are NO facts which substantively and unambiguously point to "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods".... — Frank Apisa


That's not what I'm asking. You don't need "substantively and umabiguously" for something not to be just a blind guess. For it to not just be a blind guess it simply has to be based on some support--some evidence, some logical argument, etc. — Terrapin Station

There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not.

There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not. — Frank Apisa

That's not correct though. We can base our assertions on evidence, rationality, etc.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not. — Frank Apisa


That's not correct though. We can base our assertions on evidence, rationality, etc. — Terrapin Station

There is absolutely nothing upon which you can make a meaningful guess regarding the existence or non-existence of gods.

The guess...and it will be a guess...is completely blind. You can just as logically, reasonably toss a coin...and use HEADS for "there is at least one god" and TAILS for "there are no gods."

Which way are you guessing, by the way? Perhaps we can approach our discussion better if that information is shared.

As for me...I am not making a guess...although if you want me to, I will gladly flip a coin.

There is absolutely nothing upon which you can make a meaningful guess regarding the existence or non-existence of gods. — Frank Apisa

I don't know why you're changing to a focus on "meaningful."

At any rate, one example of something you can base an assertion on is whether nonphysical existents are coherent.

You're mistaking compassion for condescension.

I am not bothered, I am not in a competition to win and get pleasure out of it as if you were my enemy, I am just trying to make you see your mistake. At best I am a bit annoyed that you keep misinterpreting and misrepresenting my intentions and thoughts, and I wish you would spend a little more effort in attempting to understand what I try to convey to you.


Do you consider that a belief is the same thing as a guess?

If so, why do you insist on not using the word belief, why is it less clear to use the word belief?

If not, what is to you the difference between the two?

Terrapin Station
9.1k

There is absolutely nothing upon which you can make a meaningful guess regarding the existence or non-existence of gods. — Frank Apisa


I don't know why you're changing to a focus on "meaningful." — Terrapin Station

Because a guess that is not "meaningful" is pretty much a blind one. I certainly can make a guess...I could, for instance, flip a coin to determine that guess. But it would not be meaningful, Terrapin.

I remind you of my personal agnosticism...which I have posted several times:

I do not know if gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.

So the "meaningful" is not new...it has been part of my position for the last thirty years.

At any rate, one example of something you can base an assertion on is whether nonphysical existents are coherent.

The question I would ask myself is: Can what we humans call "non-physical beings" exist?

My answer would be: I do not know. It certainly is possible. (I can't see any reason to assert it being necessary or to assert it being impossible.) And I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess...so I probably wouldn't.

leo
257
↪Frank Apisa


You're mistaking compassion for condescension. — leo

No, I am not. And that sentence was particularly condescending.

I am not bothered, — Leo

Well...you certainly are acting as though you are.

I am not in a competition to win and get pleasure out of it as if you were my enemy, I am just trying to make you see your mistake. — Leo

I am not mistaken on this point. I do not do "believing."

At best I am a bit annoyed that you keep misinterpreting and misrepresenting my intentions and thoughts, and I wish you would spend a little more effort in attempting to understand what I try to convey to you. — Leo

(Just shakes his head and sighs at this nonsense.)

Do you consider that a belief is the same thing as a guess? — Leo

I think a guess is a guess. At times some people hide the fact that they are making a guess by calling their guess a belief...as in "I believe (in) God" or "I believe there are no gods."

I do not do that. If I make a guess...I call my guess a guess.

If so, why do you insist on not using the word belief, why is it less clear to use the word belief? — Leo

See above.

If not, what is to you the difference between the two? — Leo

A guess that is called a "belief" is being disguised.

I prefer not to do that.

I do wonder why that bothers you so.

No, I am not. And that sentence was particularly condescending. — Frank Apisa

Yes you are mistaking my compassion for condescension, and no saying that I have compassion for you is not objectively condescending, that's your own subjective interpretation.

Well...you certainly are acting as though you are. — Frank Apisa

I would be bothered if I was fighting with you and I wanted you to admit defeat, which seems to be your interpretation of what's going on here. But I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to help you see something you fail to see.

(Just shakes his head and sighs at this nonsense.) — Frank Apisa

Now this is much more objectively condescending. It is not nonsense to state that you misinterpret and misrepresent my intentions, I should know because I know what my intentions are.

I think a guess is a guess. At times some people hide the fact that they are making a guess by calling their guess a belief...as in "I believe (in) God" or "I believe there are no gods." — Frank Apisa

A guess that is called a "belief" is being disguised. — Frank Apisa

You didn't answer my question. Do you consider that a guess and a belief are the same thing? Yes or no?

If you say that calling a guess a belief is disguising a guess, that means you consider that a belief is not a guess right?

And then what is the difference between a guess and a belief? What is a belief to you?

leo
259

No, I am not. And that sentence was particularly condescending. — Frank Apisa


Yes you are mistaking my compassion for condescension, and no saying that I have compassion for you is not objectively condescending, that's your own subjective interpretation. — leo

You are mistaking your condescension for compassion. I suspect (only suspect) that is because along with being condescending...you are also being an asshole.

Well...you certainly are acting as though you are. — Frank Apisa


I would be bothered if I was fighting with you and I wanted you to admit defeat, which seems to be your interpretation of what's going on here. But I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to help you see something you fail to see. — Leo

Baloney.

Anyway...allow me to help you see a mistake of yours. Your paragraph was written in the conditional subjective mood...so it should have started, "I would be bothered if I WERE fighting..."

No need for any thanks.

(Just shakes his head and sighs at this nonsense.) — Frank Apisa


Now this is much more objectively condescending. It is not nonsense to state that you misinterpret and misrepresent my intentions, I should know because I know what my intentions are. — Leo

It absolutely was condescending...and meant to be so. I was echoing your condescension. I suspect (just suspect) that either you are lying...or that you do NOT know your intentions.

I think a guess is a guess. At times some people hide the fact that they are making a guess by calling their guess a belief...as in "I believe (in) God" or "I believe there are no gods." — Frank Apisa

A guess that is called a "belief" is being disguised. — Frank Apisa


You didn't answer my question. — Leo

I responded to your question. If you do not consider it an answer...so be it. You can infer my answer from my response.

Do you consider that a guess and a belief are the same thing? Yes or no? — Leo

Okay...yes or no.

If you say that calling a guess a belief is disguising a guess, that means you consider that a belief is not a guess right? — Leo

I made a response to your question that was clear...and gave you more than enough information to ease this bother and trauma you are enduring because of my position.

Use it. Or consult your physician for a drug that will help you cope.

And then what is the difference between a guess and a belief? — Leo

I am sure you meant..."what is the difference" as I see it.

To me, a "guess" is a word used to denote an assertion (of sorts) that lacks sufficient information to be reasonably certain. Guesses seem to range from "informed guesses" to "totally blind guesses."

To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true. It also is a word that people use to disguise some guesses, mostly, it seems to me, because they do not want to acknowledge the guesses to be guesses.

(Neither of these are all encompassing definitions...but they give a good taste of my feelings about both.

What is a belief to you?

We've been through this.

To Leo
Frank is here on a self validatory mission regarding his agnosticism. This involves ignoring all usual epistemological objections because his personal sacrosanct word magic of 'guessing' has replaced the word magic of 'holy writ' he rejected. He of course dismisses this contextual observation as 'crap', but
but that's is actually all there is to it.

fresco
10
To Leo
Frank is here on a self validatory mission regarding his agnosticism. This involves ignoring all usual epistemological objections because his personal sacrosanct word magic of 'guessing' has replaced the word magic of 'holy writ' he rejected. He of course dismisses this contextual observation as 'crap', but
but that's is actually all there is to it. — fresco

Yeah, a bit of that.

Also to help people too involved with themselves...

...to kick the habit.

It is okay to make blind guesses...and pretend they are something more by calling them "beliefs."

I actually get a kick out of watching people do it.

There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not. — Frank Apisa


That's not correct though. We can base our assertions on evidence, rationality, etc. — Terrapin Station

"We can" - "we are able to". Yes, mostly, or at least often, we are. But often we are not. Rationality is not something we always can, or do, do. ... Perhaps especially when we're thinking about God?

Because a guess that is not "meaningful" is pretty much a blind one. — Frank Apisa

Unless you're using "meaning" in some very odd manner, why couldn't a blind guess be meaningful to someone?

My answer would be: I do not know. It certainly is possible. — Frank Apisa

If the very notion of nonphysicality is incoherent, you can know.

But often we are not. — Pattern-chaser

I don't think that people often make blind guesses about things. And when they do, they usually announce it; often they're rather apologetic about it.

That doesn't imply that someone else is going to think that the empirical stuff, the rationality behind an assertion that's not a blind guess is "quality," but that's a very different issue.

I actually was being sincere, and in return you were fully condescending towards me.

English is not my first language by the way, hence the occasional grammatical errors.

But since you suspect that I am lying and/or that I don't know my own intentions, there is no point in talking to you about myself, so I'll stop doing it.


Finally you said it: guess and belief are not the same thing.

Now I'm going to point out the thorn that bothers you.

To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true. It also is a word that people use to disguise some guesses, mostly, it seems to me, because they do not want to acknowledge the guesses to be guesses. — Frank Apisa

You want to know why people who accept something as true don't say it is a guess? Because when they accept it as true, it becomes the truth to them.

It bothers you that people who believe in something don't acknowledge that their belief is a guess, but in order to acknowledge that it is a guess they would have to stop believing. So fundamentally it bothers you that people believe in something.


You say you do not believe in anything, but I presume there are things you accept as true because you consider you have the evidence to establish them as true? Do you have some examples of that?

Terrapin Station
9.1k

Because a guess that is not "meaningful" is pretty much a blind one. — Frank Apisa


Unless you're using "meaning" in some very odd manner, why couldn't a blind guess be meaningful to someone? — Terrapin Station

Sounds as though it could be meaningful to you.

But I am talking about someone seriously considering questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

To someone considering questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence..."beliefs" based on what essentially are coin tosses...ARE NOT MEANINGFUL.

My answer would be: I do not know. It certainly is possible. — Frank Apisa


If the very notion of nonphysicality is incoherent, you can know.

I'll stick with the truth.

I do not know if what humans call "non-physical beings" exist.

My guess is you don't either.

But apparently you are going to pretend there is a way for you to know...by pretending we humans can declare the very idea to be "incoherent."

Hey, no problemo.

You are allowed to do that.

To someone considering questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence..."beliefs" based on what essentially are coin tosses...ARE NOT MEANINGFUL. — Frank Apisa

If someone assigns meaning to something, it's meaningful to them.

"Meaningful" is always to an individual.

Re the other part, what does it conventionally imply (in a philosophical context) if something is incoherent?

Terrapin Station
9.1k

But often we are not. — Pattern-chaser


I don't think that people often make blind guesses about things. And when they do, they usually announce it; often they're rather apologetic about it.

That doesn't imply that someone else is going to think that the empirical stuff, the rationality behind an assertion that's not a blind guess is "quality," but that's a very different issue. — Terrapin Station

Your wording is careless. Are you actually saying you don't think people often make blind guesses...or are you actually saying you think people do not often make blind guesses.

Those are two different things...and in a philosophy forum, that should be considered.

Anyway, I will assume sloppy wording...and further assume you meant that you think people do not often make blind guesses.

Wow!

Every person on this planet who has ever made a statement like, "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods"...

...IS MAKING A BLIND GUESS.

Damn near everyone (excepting agnostics) make blind guesses about that question.

Once more, had you read the epistemological literature, you would be aware that all words, including 'guess' take their meaning from the social context in which they occur. They are no longer considered representational of a 'state of reality' independent of that context. That position renders much verbiage called 'debate' as mere jockeying for social dominance, or even a form of social dancing.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Lewis Carroll.

Your wording is careless. Are you actually saying you don't think people often make blind guesses...or are you actually saying you think people do not often make blind guesses. — Frank Apisa

It's not careless if you're used to conventional conversational English. The two are saying the same thing.

Every person on this planet who has ever made a statement like, "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods"...

...IS MAKING A BLIND GUESS. — Frank Apisa

No, they're not. Almost everyone is basing that on some sort of evidence, some sort of intuition or feeling that isn't identical to the claim, some sort of reasoning, etc. Almost no one actually makes a blind guess about it.

Whether you think the evidence, the reasoning, etc. is quality, is apt, etc. is another issue. That's irrelevant to whether it's a blind guess.

Look at it this way. When a baseball player says to himself, "If I don't chew my gum exactly nine times between pitches, I'm not going to be able to get a hit," they're not making a blind guess about whether they're going to be able to get a hit. They're basing their belief on a correlation they're making between gum-chewing and getting a hit. We might not think that the evidential basis of their belief has any merit, we might claim that if they'd test the theory more rigorously they'd probably see that it's false (though many factors go into this, including that very superstitious players can basically sabotage themselves when they don't follow a particular practice), but that's irrelevant to whether it's a blind guess. If it's based on some sort of evidence, it's not a blind guess. Blind guesses are characterized by being based on nothing other than making a guess a la throwing mental dice so to speak.

leo
260
↪Frank Apisa


I actually was being sincere, and in return you were fully condescending towards me. — leo

It is my opinion that you were not sincere when you said you were not being condescending toward me.

I am returning the condescension.

English is not my first language by the way, hence the occasional grammatical errors.

I understand and I will not call other errors to your attention. The reason I called that one to your attention was because you were calling what you consider a mistake to mine. It was not a mistake.

But since you suspect that I am lying and/or that I don't know my own intentions, there is no point in talking to you about myself, so I'll stop doing it.

Okay...we move on. I hope no condescension comes from either of us from this point on.

Finally you said it: guess and belief are not the same thing.

Now I'm going to point out the thorn that bothers you. — Leo

No you are not. And to suppose you can do that...is fucking condescension.

Let's get away from that!

To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true. It also is a word that people use to disguise some guesses, mostly, it seems to me, because they do not want to acknowledge the guesses to be guesses. — Frank Apisa


You want to know why people who accept something as true don't say it is a guess? Because when they accept it as true, it becomes the truth to them. — Leo

I do not care why they don't call it a guess. I suspect they don't for a variety of reasons.

But the fact that it "becomes the truth to them"...DOES NOT MAKE IT THE TRUTH.

It bothers you that people who believe in something don't acknowledge that their belief is a guess, but in order to acknowledge that it is a guess they would have to stop believing. So fundamentally it bothers you that people believe in something. — Leo

It doesn't bother me.

If they want to kid themselves and suppose their "beliefs" on these issues are more than just blind guesses...that is fine with me. Their lives might be upset without that pretense...and no way I would want to talk them out of something that helps them live a more comfortable life.

I would never do that.

So what in hell are you talking about?

You say you do not believe in anything, but I presume there are things you accept as true because you consider you have the evidence to establish them as true? Do you have some examples of that?

I imagine there are...but I am a rather thorough agnostic and I seldom make a big deal of taking anything (of the nature we are talking about) as true the way some people do "there is a God" or "there are no gods."

I accept without the slightest doubt one thing said right here in this exchange...with no real evidence other than your word, namely that English is not your first language. You are very, very proficient...and I could doubt that, but I am totally willing to accept it as true without any investigation.

I would not say, "I believe you"...I would say, "I accept that as true."

I simply do not ever use the word "believe" as a substitute for "accept" or "suppose" or "estimate" or "guess."

I just do not do it.

Which is why I truthfully say, I do not do "believing."

You are correct Terrapin. What matters is agreement as to 'evidence' and that's a social phenomenon. Indeed, from the pov that 'reality' is never directly accessible, pragmatists reject 'absooute(non contextual) reality' as meaningless which in turn renders 'guess' to be about whatworks, not what is.
[NB The Eprime movement in philosophy attempted to ban using the word 'is' ]

fresco
11
Once more, had you read the epistemological literature, you would be aware that all words, including 'guess' take their meaning from the social context in which they occur. They are no longer considered representational of a 'state of reality' independent of that context. That position renders much verbiage called 'debate' as mere jockeying for social dominance, or even a form of social dancing.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all." — fresco

Okay...thank you for that, Fresco.

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

Your wording is careless. Are you actually saying you don't think people often make blind guesses...or are you actually saying you think people do not often make blind guesses. — Frank Apisa


It's not careless if you're used to conventional conversational English. The two are saying the same thing. — Terrapin Station

In a philosophy forum...one expects greater care with wording.

If you are not up to it...no problem.

Every person on this planet who has ever made a statement like, "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods"...

...IS MAKING A BLIND GUESS. — Frank Apisa


No, they're not. Almost everyone is basing that on some sort of evidence, some sort of intuition or feeling that isn't identical to the claim, some sort of reasoning, etc. Almost no one actually makes a blind guess about it. — Terrapin

No they are not. They are making a totally blind guess...pretending they are not making a totally blind guess...and furthering the pretense by using "believe" rather than "blindly guess" to describe what they are doing.

Whether you think the evidence, the reasoning, etc. is quality is another issue. That's irrelevant to whether it's a blind guess.

It is a blind guess.

But the pretense seems important to you...so stick with it.

— Terrapin Station

That was terrible.

In fact, it was worse than terrible.

I accept without the slightest doubt one thing said right here in this exchange...with no real evidence other than your word, namely that English is not your first language. You are very, very proficient...and I could doubt that, but I am totally willing to accept it as true without any investigation.

I would not say, "I believe you"...I would say, "I accept that as true." — Frank Apisa

But you said previously: "To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".

And by your own admission you do not have the evidence to actually establish as true that English is not my first language.

So in accepting as true that English is not my first language, you are believing, by your own definition of "belief". You are not saying it of course, but you are doing it.

Frank
What point are you trying to make quoting Jabberwocky ?

Lewis Carroll (Charles Dodgson) was a logician interested in semantics. Are you claiming expertise in this area ?

leo
261

I accept without the slightest doubt one thing said right here in this exchange...with no real evidence other than your word, namely that English is not your first language. You are very, very proficient...and I could doubt that, but I am totally willing to accept it as true without any investigation.

I would not say, "I believe you"...I would say, "I accept that as true." — Frank Apisa


But you said previously: "To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".

And by your own admission you do not have the evidence to actually establish as true that English is not my first language.

So in accepting as true that English is not my first language, you are believing, by your own definition of "belief". You are not saying it of course, but you are doing it. — leo

No...I am specifically NOT doing that.

I am accepting it.

Right along I have said that I do all the other things people do who say about those things, "I believe...!

But I do not use the "believe" denotation.

I accept; I guess; I estimate; I suppose; I presume; I assume; I assess...just like everyone else. I have never said anything about any of that...EXCEPT THAT I DO THOSE THINGS.

And when I do, I say, "I guess..."; "I suppose..."; "I presume..."...and all the rest.

But the one goddam thing I do NOT DO...

...is to say, "I believe."

So I do not do "believing." I do guessing; I do supposing: I do presuming...BUT I DO NOT DO BELIEVING.

Not sure how to get that through the concrete screening your brain input...but I am relentless, so I will keep making attempts.