If, however, you are asking if I am of the opinion that there are NO facts which substantively and unambiguously point to "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods".... — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
If, however, you are asking if I am of the opinion that there are NO facts which substantively and unambiguously point to "there is at least one god" or "there are no gods".... — Frank Apisa
That's not what I'm asking. You don't need "substantively and umabiguously" for something not to be just a blind guess. For it to not just be a blind guess it simply has to be based on some support--some evidence, some logical argument, etc. — Terrapin Station
There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not. — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not. — Frank Apisa
That's not correct though. We can base our assertions on evidence, rationality, etc. — Terrapin Station
There is absolutely nothing upon which you can make a meaningful guess regarding the existence or non-existence of gods. — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
There is absolutely nothing upon which you can make a meaningful guess regarding the existence or non-existence of gods. — Frank Apisa
I don't know why you're changing to a focus on "meaningful." — Terrapin Station
At any rate, one example of something you can base an assertion on is whether nonphysical existents are coherent.
leo
257
↪Frank Apisa
You're mistaking compassion for condescension. — leo
I am not bothered, — Leo
I am not in a competition to win and get pleasure out of it as if you were my enemy, I am just trying to make you see your mistake. — Leo
At best I am a bit annoyed that you keep misinterpreting and misrepresenting my intentions and thoughts, and I wish you would spend a little more effort in attempting to understand what I try to convey to you. — Leo
Do you consider that a belief is the same thing as a guess? — Leo
If so, why do you insist on not using the word belief, why is it less clear to use the word belief? — Leo
If not, what is to you the difference between the two? — Leo
No, I am not. And that sentence was particularly condescending. — Frank Apisa
Well...you certainly are acting as though you are. — Frank Apisa
(Just shakes his head and sighs at this nonsense.) — Frank Apisa
I think a guess is a guess. At times some people hide the fact that they are making a guess by calling their guess a belief...as in "I believe (in) God" or "I believe there are no gods." — Frank Apisa
A guess that is called a "belief" is being disguised. — Frank Apisa
leo
259
No, I am not. And that sentence was particularly condescending. — Frank Apisa
Yes you are mistaking my compassion for condescension, and no saying that I have compassion for you is not objectively condescending, that's your own subjective interpretation. — leo
Well...you certainly are acting as though you are. — Frank Apisa
I would be bothered if I was fighting with you and I wanted you to admit defeat, which seems to be your interpretation of what's going on here. But I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to help you see something you fail to see. — Leo
(Just shakes his head and sighs at this nonsense.) — Frank Apisa
Now this is much more objectively condescending. It is not nonsense to state that you misinterpret and misrepresent my intentions, I should know because I know what my intentions are. — Leo
I think a guess is a guess. At times some people hide the fact that they are making a guess by calling their guess a belief...as in "I believe (in) God" or "I believe there are no gods." — Frank Apisa
A guess that is called a "belief" is being disguised. — Frank Apisa
You didn't answer my question. — Leo
Do you consider that a guess and a belief are the same thing? Yes or no? — Leo
If you say that calling a guess a belief is disguising a guess, that means you consider that a belief is not a guess right? — Leo
And then what is the difference between a guess and a belief? — Leo
What is a belief to you?
fresco
10
To Leo
Frank is here on a self validatory mission regarding his agnosticism. This involves ignoring all usual epistemological objections because his personal sacrosanct word magic of 'guessing' has replaced the word magic of 'holy writ' he rejected. He of course dismisses this contextual observation as 'crap', but
but that's is actually all there is to it. — fresco
There is nothing upon which anyone can do other than to blindly guess if there are any gods or not. — Frank Apisa
That's not correct though. We can base our assertions on evidence, rationality, etc. — Terrapin Station
Because a guess that is not "meaningful" is pretty much a blind one. — Frank Apisa
My answer would be: I do not know. It certainly is possible. — Frank Apisa
But often we are not. — Pattern-chaser
To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true. It also is a word that people use to disguise some guesses, mostly, it seems to me, because they do not want to acknowledge the guesses to be guesses. — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
Because a guess that is not "meaningful" is pretty much a blind one. — Frank Apisa
Unless you're using "meaning" in some very odd manner, why couldn't a blind guess be meaningful to someone? — Terrapin Station
My answer would be: I do not know. It certainly is possible. — Frank Apisa
If the very notion of nonphysicality is incoherent, you can know.
To someone considering questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence..."beliefs" based on what essentially are coin tosses...ARE NOT MEANINGFUL. — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
But often we are not. — Pattern-chaser
I don't think that people often make blind guesses about things. And when they do, they usually announce it; often they're rather apologetic about it.
That doesn't imply that someone else is going to think that the empirical stuff, the rationality behind an assertion that's not a blind guess is "quality," but that's a very different issue. — Terrapin Station
Your wording is careless. Are you actually saying you don't think people often make blind guesses...or are you actually saying you think people do not often make blind guesses. — Frank Apisa
Every person on this planet who has ever made a statement like, "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods"...
...IS MAKING A BLIND GUESS. — Frank Apisa
leo
260
↪Frank Apisa
I actually was being sincere, and in return you were fully condescending towards me. — leo
English is not my first language by the way, hence the occasional grammatical errors.
But since you suspect that I am lying and/or that I don't know my own intentions, there is no point in talking to you about myself, so I'll stop doing it.
Finally you said it: guess and belief are not the same thing.
Now I'm going to point out the thorn that bothers you. — Leo
To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true. It also is a word that people use to disguise some guesses, mostly, it seems to me, because they do not want to acknowledge the guesses to be guesses. — Frank Apisa
You want to know why people who accept something as true don't say it is a guess? Because when they accept it as true, it becomes the truth to them. — Leo
It bothers you that people who believe in something don't acknowledge that their belief is a guess, but in order to acknowledge that it is a guess they would have to stop believing. So fundamentally it bothers you that people believe in something. — Leo
You say you do not believe in anything, but I presume there are things you accept as true because you consider you have the evidence to establish them as true? Do you have some examples of that?
fresco
11
Once more, had you read the epistemological literature, you would be aware that all words, including 'guess' take their meaning from the social context in which they occur. They are no longer considered representational of a 'state of reality' independent of that context. That position renders much verbiage called 'debate' as mere jockeying for social dominance, or even a form of social dancing.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all." — fresco
Terrapin Station
9.1k
Your wording is careless. Are you actually saying you don't think people often make blind guesses...or are you actually saying you think people do not often make blind guesses. — Frank Apisa
It's not careless if you're used to conventional conversational English. The two are saying the same thing. — Terrapin Station
Every person on this planet who has ever made a statement like, "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods"...
...IS MAKING A BLIND GUESS. — Frank Apisa
No, they're not. Almost everyone is basing that on some sort of evidence, some sort of intuition or feeling that isn't identical to the claim, some sort of reasoning, etc. Almost no one actually makes a blind guess about it. — Terrapin
Whether you think the evidence, the reasoning, etc. is quality is another issue. That's irrelevant to whether it's a blind guess.
I accept without the slightest doubt one thing said right here in this exchange...with no real evidence other than your word, namely that English is not your first language. You are very, very proficient...and I could doubt that, but I am totally willing to accept it as true without any investigation.
I would not say, "I believe you"...I would say, "I accept that as true." — Frank Apisa
leo
261
I accept without the slightest doubt one thing said right here in this exchange...with no real evidence other than your word, namely that English is not your first language. You are very, very proficient...and I could doubt that, but I am totally willing to accept it as true without any investigation.
I would not say, "I believe you"...I would say, "I accept that as true." — Frank Apisa
But you said previously: "To me, a "belief" is a word used to denote an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".
And by your own admission you do not have the evidence to actually establish as true that English is not my first language.
So in accepting as true that English is not my first language, you are believing, by your own definition of "belief". You are not saying it of course, but you are doing it. — leo
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