By your reasoning, then, everything is God; God is everything. Fine by me, but it seems to me in the scriptures God is not everything and everything is not God. At least that was the message I got several times.

By your reasoning, then, everything is God; — Bitter Crank

If God is omnipresent, yes. That's a requirement for omnipresence. The other option is simply not to say that God is omnipresent.

I am present in front of my computer; I am present in my house; I am present in The Philosophy Forum, yet I am not coextensive with my computer, the house, or TPS. Why can't God be present in Paris, but not be the same as Paris? Or be present in your toilet bowl while not being the same as a toilet bowl?

If God is you, then you don't exist.

Well, or you're part of God. (This is all of course, assuming that someone buys the notion of a God, buys omnipresence, etc.)

I am present in front of my computer; I am present in my house; I am present in The Philosophy Forum, yet I am not coextensive with my computer, the house, or TPS. Why can't God be present in Paris, but not be the same as Paris? Or be present in your toilet bowl while not being the same as a toilet bowl? — Bitter Crank

Because Omnipresent means "present everywhere." There can't be a location where something isn't present while the thing in question is omnipresent.

What would you suggest as an alternate definition of omnipresent?

If intentionality isnt a necessary component of mind, then if God's mind lacks intentionality, how is that any different from a physical universe that is shaped by mindless, unintentional forces, the way way science describes reality? — Harry Hindu

Well, backtracking on my limited knowledge of Spinoza, this raises the concept of necessitarianism. If everything that is the case can only be true in one world*, then God is equanimous with a strict degree of agency pertaining to the current state of affairs of the world. So, human agency is essentially an illusion and God too has limited agency if we equate Him/Her/It with the World.

We could have minds too as you havent defined what mind is. — Harry Hindu

So, I'll assert that to have a mind is to have some degree of agency, or more succinctly, to have a mind is to have something called a free will.

* This still holds true for any multiplicity of world(s) or one world.

present everywhere — Terrapin Station

I take omnipresence to mean present in all places at all times. So, under this notion of omnipresence God is present at all times everywhere. Time, in other words, does not pass for God, since God is present at all times at once, everywhere.

That's what I think omnipresence means. If I believed in God (as I once did) omnipresence would be a plank in my platform of belief. For God there are no mysteries, because God is present at the beginning and at every moment there after. (Beginning of what? Beginning of the Cosmos? End of the Cosmos? God is presumably infinite, so there is no beginning or end, but lots of sub-units of creation last only a little while. Like our esteemed selves, for example. "Death, like an over-flowing stream, sweeps us away. Our life is but a dream, an empty tale; a morning flower, cut down and withered in an hour" That seems to be a paraphrase of one hymnodist's work by another.

But then Isaac Watts was borrow from Psalm 90:

1 Our God, our help in ages past,
Our hope for years to come,
Our shelter from the stormy blast,
And our eternal home.

2 Under the shadow of thy throne
Thy saints have dwelt secure;
Sufficient is thine arm alone,
And our defense is sure.

3 Before the hills in order stood,
Or earth received her frame,
From everlasting thou art God,
To endless years the same.

4 Thy word commands our flesh to dust,
"Return, ye sons of men:"
All nations rose from earth at first,
And turn to earth again.

5 A thousand ages in thy sight
Are like an ev'ning gone;
Short as the watch that ends the night
Before the rising sun.

6 The busy tribes of flesh and blood,
With all their lives and cares,
Are carried downwards by the flood,
And lost in following years.

7 Time, like an ever-rolling stream,
Bears all its sons away;
They fly, forgotten, as a dream
Dies at the op'ning day.

8 Like flowery fields the nations stand
Pleased with the morning light;
The flowers beneath the mower's hand
Lie with'ring ere 'tis night.]

9 Our God, our help in ages past,
Our hope for years to come,
Be thou our guard while troubles last,
And our eternal home.

Doesn't God's omniscience matter in this? An all-knowing God will clearly know everything there is to know, including existence of external realities. If he were a solpisist then he would be a well-justified solpsist.

Doesn't God's omniscience matter in this? — TheMadFool

Depends on how you contextualize this. If you equate His/Her/Its omniscience with the world, then there is nothing apart from the World and God is a solipsist.

Depends on how you contextualize this. If you equate His/Her/Its omniscience with the world, then there is nothing apart from the World and God is a solipsist. — Wallows

What about us? We're not God, let's say for the reason we're capable of evil and god is all-good. Therefore God wouldn't be a solipsist since he would know us as distinct from himself.

What about us? We're not God, let's say for the reason we're capable of evil and god is all-good. Therefore God wouldn't be a solipsist since he would know us as distinct from himself. — TheMadFool

Back a long time ago in a forum far away, I began my philosophical beggings with the claim that we are all indeed god's* in a solipsistic manner. Have you ever lucid dreamed?

*Lower case g, as the late Mars Man taught me in that thread.

Have you ever lucid dreamed? — Wallows

No but I'd like to. What's your point if I may ask?

No but I'd like to. What's your point if I may ask? — TheMadFool

Well, here's a rough draft.

We all dream. The world we inhabit within our dreams is a solipsistic one. Dream entities are created from our memories, and seemingly have an intent of their own. When one becomes lucid within a dream, one can do just about anything they desire. Fly, dance with their late partner, even do homework (something I tried to do; but, could never attain a sufficiently high enough state of lucidity to do). Essentially, you become a God within your own solipsistic dream (world/universe).

Lucid dreams are about as realistic (indirectly) a "proof" I have ever been able to entertain of there being such an entity as "God".

— Bitter Crank

So how would you say that God wouldn't be the same as Paris if he's omnipresent?

So how would you say that God wouldn't be the same as Paris if he's omnipresent? — Terrapin Station

Because I said so? Will that work?

Wouldn't God have a problem being the same as Paris and Akron, Ohio at the same time? I mean, there are limits on what is imaginable, even for god, right?

Look, when people conceived and developed this version of god, they used superlatives: Creator of all things, Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Immortal, Invincible, God only wise, etc. Omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omni-magnum-cum-laude--whatever you want. God "created" the world. The world-creating god existed before the world, and is not one and the same with the world. Is this contradictory?

If it is contradictory, it wouldn't be the only thing about religion that is.

I've decided I'm going to my grave thinking that god is not one and the same as Paris and Akron at the same time.

Full Disclosure: I've never been in Akron, Ohio or Paris, France. It's possible that both of them are fictional places.

Wouldn't God have a problem being the same as Paris and Akron, Ohio at the same time? I mean, there are limits on what is imaginable, even for god, right? — Bitter Crank

The idea isn't that every location is the entirety of God. But God needs to be present at every location for omnipresence.

But yeah, a lot of this stuff wasn't thought out very well.

I've been to both Akron and Paris. I recommend visiting Paris first unless you're really into rubber.

Well, backtracking on my limited knowledge of Spinoza, this raises the concept of necessitarianism. If everything that is the case can only be true in one world*, then God is equanimous with a strict degree of agency pertaining to the current state of affairs of the world. So, human agency is essentially an illusion and God too has limited agency if we equate Him/Her/It with the World. — Wallows

What would limited agency look like vs. the illusion of agency? In other words, how would God know that his agency isn't an illusion, and just limited?

So, I'll assert that to have a mind is to have some degree of agency, or more succinctly, to have a mind is to have something called a free will. — Wallows

Right, so what would the illusion of free will look like vs. limited free will? And how is limited free will not a contradiction?

What would limited agency look like vs. the illusion of agency? — Harry Hindu

Well, to go all Zen on you, let me answer by asking another question. Does agency matter at all in a solipsistic world? I mean, within the set or domain of discourse, there can only be one solipsist, yes?

In other words, how would God know that his agency isn't an illusion, and just limited? — Harry Hindu

Doesn't really matter if he/she/it is a solipsist, does it?

The idea isn't that every location is the entirety of God. But God needs to be present at every location for omnipresence. — Terrapin Station

Yes, that's my understanding - God is present AT every location. Thanks for the tip on Akron, without which I almost passed up the all-expense-paid 2 week budget tour of Paris for the all-expense paid weekend luxury tour of Akron. What was your impression of Akron? When were you there?

Back in the 80's I read a good book on plant closings called "Magic City". The town wasn't named in the book but I'm pretty sure it was Akron. It was about how the plant closings affected the workers -- not positively. About the time I was reading the book, a large plant closed in St. Paul and the local PBS station did a series of interviews and follow-ups with a group of the workers. The electronics workers and the rubber workers had pretty much the same experience.

But all that is neither here nor there as far as this thread goes. How do you think God feels about Akron?

Yes, that's my understanding - God is present AT every location. — Bitter Crank

Right, but there can't be anywhere that God is not located then. Including every cell of bodies, ever elementary particle, etc.

Re Akron, I was born in Cleveland. I didn't actually live there that long--we moved to South Florida and I think of myself as being raised in South Florida instead, but I've got a ton of relatives all over Ohio still.

Right, but there can't be anywhere that God is not located then. Including every cell of bodies, ever elementary particle, etc. — Terrapin Station

So, since God was the very first quantum mechanic, I am sure he has no problem being in the precise location of all those whizzy particles at once.

There are a lot of people all over Ohio. Had Cleveland crashed when you were still there (flaming rivers of muck, etc.)? Never been in Cleveland either. I've been in London, Ohio, and been across Ohio a couple of times. Why, oh why, Ohio. Song written by Betty Comden, Leonard Bernstein, and Adolph Green. It's from the play, Wonderful Town. "Wonderful" didn't reference any burg in Ohio.

This is just for your cultural literacy. Personally, I think the song sucks. Even if LB did have something to do with it.

I am a solipsist, in fact ... i am the solipsist, the only one. Is god a solipsist? i don't know, i only know that a solipsist understands that he is god.