• AJJ
    909
    So how it is that a proposition is true when it matches something that's not true (or false) is that "true" is what we're naming that matching.Terrapin Station

    You’re giving “the matching” the name “true” there, not the proposition.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You’re giving “the matching” the name “true” there, not the proposition.AJJ

    Yes, the matching is what's true (on correspondence theory). The matching is a property of proposition. In other words, the proposition matches the fact due to the content/structure of the proposition.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    That’s precisely what is under discussion mate. You can’t just assert your own view and expect that to convince anyone.AJJ

    You have not understood the problem of Moore's paradox. It is not axiological but logical. That is not simply my view. If you think this is not correct then identify the value judgment that is contained in it.

    It can be clearly demonstrated that facts are not dependent on beliefs. Otherwise the claim that one ought to believe facts makes no sense. It can also be clearly demonstrated that the acceptance of facts is independent of judgments of value. People starve whether I believe it or like it or not.

    Is the claim that we ought to believe facts a belief or a fact? Beliefs may or may not be true, but a fact cannot be false, otherwise it would not be a fact even though it may be believed to be a fact. But whether it is a fact or not cannot be determined by belief, otherwise it would both be a fact and not a fact since some might accept it as a fact and others not.
  • AJJ
    909


    Right.

    So facts are states of affairs, and are neither true nor false. But then if it’s a fact that the cat is sitting on the mat, then we must say that it is neither true nor false that the cat is sitting on the mat. How then is it even possible for a proposition to match this fact? It neither is, nor is not the case that the cat is on the mat.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    But then if it’s a fact that the cat is sitting on the mat, then we must say that it is neither true nor false that the cat is sitting on the mat.AJJ

    The fact is neither true nor false. A proposition about the fact is true or false. Propositions are the sorts of things you say, such as "The cat is sitting on the mat." The way it's possible for the proposition to match is that the proposition has nouns/things/entities such as "cat" and "mat," and it posits a relation of those entities. That matches the fact-in-the-world.

    The fact is not true because true is the relational property of (a proposition) matching a fact. Facts don't have a relational property of matching a fact.
  • AJJ
    909


    This doesn’t answer my question of how it is that a proposition can match something that neither is nor is not the case.
  • AJJ
    909


    I’ll be honest and say I don’t entirely know what you’re on about, and I’m quite tired now. You seem to think the argument is that beliefs determine facts. This is not the argument. The argument is that there are facts and we ought to believe them.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    This doesn’t answer my question of how it is that a proposition can match something that neither is nor is not the case.AJJ

    We're not saying that the cat being on the mat is not the case. "Is the case" is another way of saying "is a fact." It's not another way of saying "is true" BECAUSE "true" is about the matching relationship.
  • AJJ
    909
    We're not saying that the cat being on the mat is not the case. "Is the case" is another way of saying "is a fact." It's not another way of saying "is true" BECAUSE "true" is about the matching relationship.Terrapin Station

    If “is the case” means the same as “is a fact”, then something that “is the case” (since that just means “is a fact”) neither is nor is not the case, which (since “is the case” means “is a fact”) is to say it neither is nor is not a fact.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    You seem to think the argument is that beliefs determine facts. This is not the argument.AJJ

    The premise of the argument is that if there no objective values there would be no facts. The claim is that without the former there cannot be the latter. This is a determinate relation.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    If “is the case” means the same as “is a fact”, then something that “is the case” (since that just means “is a fact”) neither is nor is not the case, which (since “is the case” means “is a fact”) is to say it neither is nor is not a fact.AJJ

    Where is someone saying that something be a fact, or being the case, where the latter is another way of saying "is the case," isn't a fact or isn't the case? Where are you getting that from aside from using the terms as a synomym for "is true" and equivocating?
  • AJJ
    909
    The premise of the argument is that if there no objective values there would be no facts. The claim is that without the former there cannot be the latter. This is a determinate relation.Fooloso4

    It’s not that our beliefs determine facts. It’s that facts are necessarily things that ought to be believed, but not that what they are is determined by beliefs.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The premise of the argument is that if there no objective values there would be no facts. The claim is that without the former there cannot be the latter. This is a determinate relation.Fooloso4

    The idea is rather that the values are a fact, somehow as a necessary upshot of facts in general. How that's supposed to work is left completely unattended, aside from saying that it's nonsense to believe otherwise.
  • AJJ
    909
    Where is someone saying that something be a fact, or being the case, where the latter is another way of saying "is the case," isn't a fact or isn't the case? Where are you getting that from aside from using the terms as a synomym for "is true" and equivocating?Terrapin Station

    You’ll have to be clearer, I can’t make sense of that.
  • AJJ
    909
    The idea is rather that the values are a fact, somehow as a necessary upshot of facts in general. How that's supposed to work is left completely unattended, aside from saying that it's nonsense to believe otherwise.Terrapin Station

    Well, it’s not left unattended. I demonstrated that believing otherwise is nonsense, I didn’t just say it.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    It’s not that our beliefs determine facts. It’s that facts are necessarily things that ought to be believed, but not that what they are is determined by beliefs.AJJ

    You are equivocating. It is not, according to Clark, that what the facts are that is determined by beliefs but rather that they are at all is determined by beliefs, for as he says:

    If there are no objective values then there are no factsAJJ

    By objective values he means things we ought to believe. If there are not things we ought to believe then there are no objective values and therefore no facts.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    The idea is rather that the values are a factTerrapin Station

    Right, but to be more precise, the claim is not simply that it is a fact that there are values but a fact that there are objective values.

    I have asked AJJ whether it is a fact that we ought to believe, which is to say, whether "we ought to believe" is an objective value.

    Clark is attempting to collapse the fact/value distinction.
  • AJJ
    909
    By objective values he means things we ought to believe. If there are not things we ought to believe then there are no objective values and therefore no facts.Fooloso4

    Yeah. But that’s not to say that the very existence of facts is determined by our beliefs, but that a necessary part of what they are is that they ought to be believed.
  • creativesoul
    11.9k
    If there are no objective values then there are no facts...AJJ

    If facts are true statements and there are no objective values then saying that there are no objective values is a fact. If we ought believe true statements, then we ought not believe the above quote.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You’ll have to be clearer, I can’t make sense of that.AJJ

    Just start with this. You claimed that someone was saying or something implied the following:

    "something that 'is the case' neither is nor is not the case."

    Where are you getting that from?
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    Yeah. But that’s not to say that the very existence of facts is determined by our beliefs, but that a necessary part of what they are is that they ought to be believed.AJJ

    But that is not what he says. Or perhaps it is not what he actually says but what you say he says. In either case, the statement is:

    If there are no objective values then there are no facts (since there’s nothing that we ought to believe).AJJ

    If a necessary part of what facts are is that they ought be believed, then if this necessary part does not exist, if they are not believed, then they do not exist.
  • AJJ
    909
    Just start with this. You claimed that someone was saying or something implied the following:

    "something that 'is the case' neither is nor is not the case."

    Where are you getting that from?
    Terrapin Station

    I understand your objection now.

    So a fact is a state of affairs, which is something that is the case, which is neither true nor false. You still have to answer how it is that a proposition could match such a thing.

    Actually the word “fact” doesn’t even mean anything here. It means “state of affairs”, which means “is the case”, which means “fact”. The word just refers to itself.
  • AJJ
    909
    If a necessary part of what facts are is that they ought be believed, then if this necessary part does not exist, if they are not believed, then they do not exist.Fooloso4

    It’s not that they don’t exist if they’re not believed. Everyone could stop believing facts and they’d still exist. It’s that they can’t exist without the necessary factor that they ought to be believed.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    It’s not that they don’t exist if they’re not believed. Everyone could stop believing facts and they’d still exist. It’s that they can’t exist without the necessary factor that they ought to be believed.AJJ

    What cannot exist does not exist.
  • AJJ
    909


    And I contend facts do exist, which means they ought to be believed if that is indeed a necessary part of their existence.
  • AJJ
    909
    If facts are true statements and there are no objective values then saying that there are no objective values is a fact. If we ought believe true statements, then we ought not believe the above quote.creativesoul

    The argument, rephrased a little, contends that there must be objective values if there are facts. If this is the case then it’s not actually possible for “there are no objective values” to be a fact.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    And I contend facts do exist, which means they ought to be believed if that is indeed a necessary part of their existence.AJJ

    What is it that you contend and what is it that Clark contends? Is your OP a statement in his words or yours?

    Is the claim that facts ought to be believed a fact? I have asked this question before.

    In what sense is being believed a necessary part of the existence of facts? Can something exist without its necessary parts? According to what you say, in the case of facts, it seems they can; and so, in what sense is believing them a necessary part of their existence if their existence does not depend on them? They ought to be believed implies that they are not necessarily believed, and so, being believed is not a necessary part of their existence.
  • AJJ
    909
    What is it that you contend and what is it that Clark contends? Is your OP a statement in his words or yours?

    Is the claim that facts ought to be believed a fact? I have asked this question before.
    Fooloso4

    The OP is more or less a quote.

    Yes, I would say so.

    In what sense is being believed a necessary part of the existence of facts? Can something exist without its necessary parts? According to what you say, in the case of facts, it seems they can; and so, in what sense is believing them a necessary part of their existence if their existence does not depend on them? They ought to be believed implies that they are not necessarily believed, and so, being believed is not a necessary part of their existence.Fooloso4

    Come on now, it’s not “being believed” that is necessary, it’s that they ought to be believed.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You still have to answer how it is that a proposition could match such a thing.AJJ

    I explained that, but I'll do it again, one step at a time.

    Start with the word "cat." Do you understand how the word "cat" can correspond with a cat?
  • AJJ
    909


    No mate, this was the important bit:

    Actually the word “fact” doesn’t even mean anything here. It means “state of affairs”, which means “is the case”, which means “fact”. The word just refers to itself.AJJ

    If “fact” doesn’t actually mean anything then you can’t match a proposition to one.
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