a) the same piece of art claimed to be painted by a white conservative male or a Hispanic lesbian which has more value? If you want to claim both would have equal opportunity to get their art hung in a gallery you are out of your mind.... — thedeadidea
b) a conversation in contrasting the significance of Starry Night by Van Gough, The Old Guitarist by Pablo Picasso and Tracy Imin's unmade bed.... Go on have a chop don't just go to the catch 22 Renaissance writers, poets and other mainstream cultural icons paint your own artist canon with the same brush.... Have a real go... then after you get done defending the bed half-heartedly contrast the value of Tracy Imin's art to the kind of aesthetic commentary one might draw from Artist's Shit by Piero Manzoni.... — thedeadidea
c) If one is a philistine for treating some art as shit and others as not but all are equal then consider the biography of a man like Auguste Rodin whose classical style in France elicited criticism and scorn in his day but still triumphed.... — thedeadidea
d) If you don't like Shakespeare that is up to you but his stories were written 400 years ago... You will have to forgive the writer if they did not weather as well as some English majors hyperbole would have you believe.... But given his pre-industrial revolution pre democracy writing one might have to be a little more forgiving... — thedeadidea
e) The reason why you wouldn't see Shakespeare in a lot of schools today is that he is probably one of the best and most humanistic centers of CULTURE the C word that some artsy wishy-washy Lefty Safe Space Occupying Morons don't want anymore... — thedeadidea
I just don't understand why kids need to read the same book.... Surely we could have an electronic database of books and let them pick in 2019.... Insisting on references (reference generators), cut and paste quotations and a digital copy so teachers could cut and paste a reference in doubt into said data base and quickly know whether it is there or not..
Considering its all arbitrary anyway a kid might as well read and write a report on the book of their children rather than read the same book and share opinions nobody cares about or learn to form those opinions. At least they might actually get some joy out of their English class — thedeadidea
It isn't even an opinion the complete lack of standards in aesthetics is one thing, to apply that to education is just disgusting. If one wants to dispute aesthetic predilections of literature more power to you but if one wants to suggest literacy rates or all texts assess the same level of literacy and interpretation you are insane..... — thedeadidea
The idea of replacing film with reading is just shit and missing the entire point of education... That is to also develop a toolbox of cognitive ability.... Including but not limited to READING ABILITY — thedeadidea
I'm just pointing out that it's not the same for everyone or in each scenario. It's not the case that one thing or the other catalyzes more imagination for everyone. — Terrapin Station
In movies the imagery is given to you. In literature, the imagery is constructed by you via imagination. — javra
For example, in Fahrenheit 451 — javra
Having both read Dune and seen the movie (I enjoyed both), this same disparity applies to the novel Dune to far greater extents. In the novel, erudite observations of politics abound, as do insights into human psychology. One soundbite-friendly observation that comes to mind, paraphrased, is that the typical adult human would rather die than find himself holding beliefs antithetical to those beliefs he’s assimilated into himself as an adult. The movie greatly skims the theoretical aspects of the book in favor of action that is visually depicted—thereby depriving the story of its more pleasant experiences, this while reading the novel. — javra
If we equate plot to story, the story remains roughly the same in a novel and a movie. But just as plot-depicting cliff notes cannot convey the aesthetic experiences of living through the story—regardless of whether it’s a movie or a novel—so too will a good movie not do a good novel justice, for the movie at best abridges far too much of the novel’s contents: those of perspectives, of background, of psychology, of worldviews, etc. And again, by comparison, a good movie will not flex the mental muscles of imagination (so to speak) anywhere near as much as will a good novel. — javra
Now, though unfortunately too often derided among rational types, imagination is of pivotal importance in everything from finding satisfactory solutions to problems (of all types and breadths) to the progress of the empirical sciences (from arriving at new paradigms which explain all outliers of data, like the Theory of Relativity and the Theory of Evolution, to the formulation of worthwhile hypotheses and adequate tests for these). — javra
And, quite arguably, among the best ways of improving this cognitive faculty among all individuals is via the reading of literature. — javra
Hey Terrapin. Just making sure you don't feel ignored in this thread. I think we are in general agreement (perhaps not exact, but much closer than those I am responding to). I just don't have anything to say when people are in agreement with me, haha. Certainly let me know if you feel I have missed anything. — ZhouBoTong
Sure, no problem. It's a topic I'm very interested in, but so far in this thread I primarily keep hoping that people will relax from typing so much, haha. I like to interact with folks so that it reads like a transcript of a casual in-person conversation we might have . . . which makes me picture people obliviously going into interminable lecture mode with all of these long posts. — Terrapin Station
[...] Because I don't see how your definition created universality.[...] — ZhouBoTong
There’s a lot that I haven’t yet replied to. Even if I don’t get around to all of it, I thank you for the candid replies. It in the meantime struck me that we might not ever resolve our differences due to reasons that are far more foundational philosophically: those pertaining to our underlying views concerning human universals. I’ll do my best to illustrate this possible disparity via one analogy: — javra
Now, if due to the aforementioned you are one to argue that, therefore, what we English speakers commonly term the experience of “being in love” cannot be validly upheld to hold a universal referent relative to our human species—a universal referent relative to which greater or better, and lesser or worse, instantiations of this universal can occur in individuals — javra
a universal referent relative to which greater or better, and lesser or worse, instantiations of this universal can occur in individuals — javra
As an example: such as the human capacity to experience the color red; while some colorblind people may not be so able, this, to me, does not then dispel the human universality of the experience of red as a color — javra
If it is the case that we disagree on this rudimentary issue pertaining to the human mind, I’ll then respectfully bow out of this discussion - primarily because the discussion would enter a completely different ballpark. — javra
As I won't even agree to disagree, haha, you are likely right that we have gone as far as we can with this. I am happy to read and respond to more, but ENTIRELY understand a desire to bow out. — ZhouBoTong
So, I’m now replying, basically, to let you know that I’ve enjoyed talking to you. — javra
If art hasn't been defined I don't see how there can be any such thing as an art expert. If there are no experts on art then there is no objective standard. If there are no objective standards then anything goes. — TheMadFool
Why can’t you see how some people can be experts? — I like sushi
Show me how possessing knowledge of an area makes no difference to the value of the judgements made. — I like sushi
Show me that someone who’s never seen or played a game of football has as much expertise as someone who’s been playing professionally all their lives at the highest level and who has been successful in management too. — I like sushi
That sounds like a meaningless and disjointed argument. Are you suggesting that the value of football players to a club is completely arbitrary? — I like sushi
Your ability to choose better players for a team is an ability to understand the value of the players. — I like sushi
I am not suggesting value judgement id infallible, but I would argue against anyone claiming value is purely a subjective matter - that doesn’t make any sense to me. — I like sushi
Why can’t you see how some people can be experts? — I like sushi
These definitions suggest to me that art is far more subjective than soccer.
But what makes them experts?
He argues that it’s through the persistence of the elites that it still holds this position, even though its not viewed that way by most of the population.He’s probably right.It’s possible that without the elites Shakespeare may have become relatively unknown.
And why shouldn’t ‘Transformers’ be used as an educational tool over Shakespeare, given that students, generally, will just shut down on Shakespeare, with the result that they come away with nothing but a dislike for Shakespeare?
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