However that may not matter because we structure our lives as if free will exists. — TheMadFool
If reason instructs, then I ought to heed and do. If I cannot, then to that degree I am not free. — tim wood
Moving to free will. If we see a computer that appears to act freely (just like people do), we might conclude that it too must be free because its behavior looks to be free, but that entirely begs the question. The question being begged is "Does free will exist?" That is, how can we say that the computer is free because it looks free like us when we're not even sure we're free? — Hanover
And the basic problem is that any computer or Turing Machine simply cannot perform the task "do something else than what is given in your program in a way not defined in the program". — ssu
yet a being that cannot act except with the idea of freedom is bound by the same laws that would oblige a being who was actually free. Thus we can escape here from the onus which presses on the theory. — Mww
But if this situation, as you say, attained, then Kant would say you have to reason more better, yes? What, in your thinking, is the motor of morality (apparently not reason)? It seems it must be desire of some kind; that is, not-reason. Do you differ from Kant in these matters?If you cannot do as reason instructs because you have attained to a conflicting moral judgement, — Mww
Kant would say you have to reason more better, yes? — tim wood
motor of morality (apparently not reason)? — tim wood
Does anything do other than what has been programmed into it? — TheMadFool
A computer cannot look at it's own program and improve it in a way not written in the program. Now a human being can understand just how he or she has behaved, what has been his or her program and change it. That's what consciousness is. — ssu
Please read carefully what I said. Turing Machine simply cannot perform the task "do something else than what is given in your program in a way not defined in the program. Whatever neural network mimicking machine deep learning we are talking about, IN THE PROGRAM there has to be specific instructions how to learn, how to rewrite the program. An algorithm following Turing Machine cannot do anything else. This is crucial to understand because it goes to the mathematical essence on just how a Turing Machine and an algorithm works. This is also the reason why computers can win in games: there are confined rules what to do and a game cannot evolve to something totally else with different objectives and different rules. This is based on what a Turing Machine does.Also, computer programs exist that improve their "own" code and chip design. — Kippo
Please read carefully what I said. Turing Machine simply cannot perform the task "do something else than what is given in your program in a way not defined in the program. Whatever neural network mimicking machine deep learning we are talking about, IN THE PROGRAM there has to be specific instructions how to learn, how to rewrite the program. — ssu
The interesting thing about the AI "singularity" is that conceptually an AI could rewrite it's base code in a way a human never could. — Echarmion
Yes but there are complications in that concept because what is the it in "its"?? Humans have a body, but computers can connect, So I can see why some might interpret the singularity as one gigantic entity. It's life Jim, but not as we know it? — Kippo
Well, we can argue if humans are conscious or not! Or think about it in this way: what does it mean to be creative, to have a new idea? Did someone tell you exactly how you should get a new idea?And what makes you think humans do not have these limitations? The way our brains function and create new connections is based on a fixed set of rules. — Echarmion
It means that you can create amalgams of previous experiences or ideas. All new ideas consist of previous experiences. A purple polka dotted people eater can't be thought of without having the concepts of purple, polka dots, people, and eating prior to creating it in your mind.what does it mean to be creative, to have a new idea? Did someone tell you exactly how you should get a new idea? — ssu
Yet that doesn't make the program having AI as it simply follows a well written software, an algorithm. That's all what Turing Machines can do. Sorry, but that is the goddam definition. — ssu
And that is quite different from a Turing Machine which basically uses simple math to follow an algorithm. What we do extremely well and are masters in, and computers might do in the future, is recognizing patterns. This importance of patterns is the reason why math and computing is so dominant. Yet we can do even better: we can handle information that has no pattern, is unique. We have this utterly incredible ability to make a narrative: First happened this, the happened a totally new thing...then Harry Hindu made a comment from another perspective. That's not computation. You cannot extrapolate from the start a pattern that will tell the rest (and your comment). There is no pattern to be computed. And that makes us so awesome compared to Turing Machines.It means that you can create amalgams of previous experiences or ideas. All new ideas consist of previous experiences. A purple polka dotted people eater can't be thought of without having the concepts of purple, polka dots, people, and eating prior to creating it in your mind. — Harry Hindu
And typically you need the human to choose just what is useful. In a nutshell, computers have a really big problem of 'thinking out of the box'. It really is a theoretical, logical problem for them. I think that people are simply in denial about this because basically they don't understand just how a Turing Machine works.Most new ideas arent useful unless they apply to the world in some way. Computers can be programmed to assemble information in unique ways and then try to apply it to some goal in the world, and its usefulness is dependent upon how it relates to some truth in the world. — Harry Hindu
No. Of course not.Again, how do you know that? In a deterministic universe, can not everything be expressed as an algorithm? — Echarmion
I don't buy this. By this logic, If there is a test to communicate with a squirrel and convince the squirrel that the entity at the other end of the test is a fellow squirrel, then humans have not yet achieved the intelligence of a squirrel.The Turing test is used to check whether an AI (artificial intelligence) is at human-level intelligence or not. — TheMadFool
Computers do recognize patterns of on and off logical gates. What I see you doing is making a lot of claims about what humans can and what computers can't do, but no explanation as to why that is the case. How and why do you recognize patterns? How and why does your mind work?And that is quite different from a Turing Machine which basically uses simple math to follow an algorithm. What we do extremely well and are masters in, and computers might do in the future, is recognizing patterns. — ssu
In order to deem something as useful, you need goals or intent. Computers can be programmed with goal-oriented behavior and use the information that they receive through their sensory devices to achieve that goal. Something is useful if it accomplishes some goal.And typically you need the human to choose just what is useful. In a nutshell, computers have a really big problem of 'thinking out of the box'. It really is a theoretical, logical problem for them. I think that people are simply in denial about this because basically they don't understand just how a Turing Machine works. — ssu
The Turing test is used to check whether an AI (artificial intelligence) is at human-level intelligence or not. — TheMadFool
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