Honestly just curious and I can't think of a single person in my field of friends where this topic would not cause a hands on brawl. — christine

Anyone who fights over the existence of a divine Jesus is certainly both a fool and not a Christian. Not a Christian because too ignorant to be one. The key phrase is, "We believe...". Real Christians stop just there. Existence/reality is a trap that real Christians don't fall into. Or maybe every Christian has to fall into it, but real Christians find their way out.

As to the existence of the man, why not?

Hi Christine, welcome to the forum. My framing of this question is not so much from philosophy per se but from the perspective of comparative religion. I have been studying a 20th century movement called 'perennialism' or 'traditionalism' which believes that religious lore, generally, is the expression of underlying universal themes or archetypes. Within that context, the person of Jesus can be understood as a (or the) archetype of divine illumination.

Of course the cardinal difficulty with this view, is that mainstream Christianity itself would likely reject any such view as being heretical or blasphemous, on account of the idea that Christ was literally the only instance of God incarnate in history. But that's where a rather more, shall we say, 'oriental' framework is useful. Within the Eastern traditions, there is also a kind of universalist view, within which holy figures, even supremely holy figures, such as the Buddha, are a type or a kind, rather than a totally unique individual. Or, in Hinduism, there is the understanding that God or the gods manifest in various forms or 'avatars' (incarnations, and the origin of the term 'avatar'.)

So within that context, much of Jesus' teaching can be framed or understood as 'archetypal spiritual teachings'. This is of course very much in line with many new-age, theosophical and other counter-cultural attitudes to such questions, which again are generally vigorously rejected by mainstream and especially fundamentalist religious communities. But it does, I feel, open up a much broader kind of landscape within which to interpret the issue, as an alternative to either outright belief, or outright rejection, which is the kind of binary choice that the Western mindset imposes on it.

Hmmm...lots to think about in your post but humanity has been fighting over Christianty for centuries so why so surprised that it is still happening? "Existence/reality is a trap that real Christians don't fall into. Or maybe every Christian has to fall into it, but real Christians find their way out." I don't agree. Life is a reality for Christians just as for Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc. and why would Christians want a way out? Isn't the key purpose to bring those who are lost to Jesus? I am still confused. I am sorry.

Isn't the key purpose to bring those who are lost to Jesus? — christine

That's the key purpose for evangelical Christians, obviously. Is that the perspective you're asking the question from?

Hello wayfarer.
I found your posits quite interesting. My previous post was to tim wood so I hope there was not confusion. I don't agree however that Jesus was a divine illumination because the adjective "divine" could be construed as god like to which end I'm not entirely sure why that would be considered blasphemy. You summarized my point exactly [quote="Wayfarer;294681".

]Within the Eastern traditions, there is also a kind of universalist view, within which holy figures, even supremely holy figures, such as the Buddha, are a type or a kind, rather than a totally unique individual. Or, in Hinduism, there is the understanding that God or the gods manifest in various forms or 'avatars' (incarnations, and the origin of the term 'avatar'.)[/quote]

Isn't God or a higher power etc. universal and why would that power exclude any type of following?

And who decides whom is lost? I am just boggled frankly. But it doesn't matter since I am an agnostic. I am just curious why it comes down to Jesus to decide who is risen and who dies. Seems a bit one sided honestly since he was born Jewish. So do all the Jews go to "hell" since they do not believe He is Christ Risen.

I am getting married in 2 weeks. What precipated this conversation is our vows. I do believe in God but not Jesus so I am sparring with the pastor on this one. I think the courthouse is the option we will take. but thank you for helping me think it through.

why it comes down to Jesus to decide who is risen and who dies. — christine

Jesus doesn’t decide that - according to Christian lore, Christ rose from the dead, and salvation depends on believing it.

I guess what I am saying is, if you’re interested in religion as a matter of history or anthropology, then do some more reading. There’s tons of books out there.

Oh, I have read many, many books. I misspoke, Jesus according to Revelations will raise the faithful. I am well versed in the Catholic Bible including tthe catechisms and the Apocrypha. The Torah, the Koran and may other anecdotal books by rabbis, priests, imams etc. and none has a definitive answer which I guess is what faith is for...I am beginning to belive that what you imagine as you are dying is what comes true....heaven, reincarnation, star dust or just emptiness.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end

in glory

Unfortunately for me I guess, I don't believe it.

christine
12
Hello anyone,
I find myself in a conundrum of sorts and although I reckon my own decisions, my curiosity got the best of me and I wanted try to suss out my exact position if possible and maybe relieve my frustation. There may already be a discussion regarding this topic and if so, I apologize and would appreciate being pointed to the approprate forum.

On the subject of religion: what happens to those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God but yet a real person and a prophet without the kingdom of heaven in the prospect? Honestly just curious and I can't think of a single person in my field of friends where this topic would not cause a hands on brawl. Needless to say I am agnostic and welcome any comments, opinions or views. Also I did not know where else to turn for objective opinions so I appreciate any feedback. Thank you. — christine

One way to handle your question, Christine...is to change the way you phrase it.

Fact is, in a religious discussion, any comment that contains the words "believe" or "belief"...is actually talking about a guess about the unknown. "I 'believe' (in) God"...really means, "My blind guess is that there is a GOD involved in the REALITY of existence."

"I 'believe' there are no gods"...really means, "My blind guess is that no gods exist."

So, essentially you are asking, "How do we reconcile differences in what we guess about the REALTY of existence?"

Ahhh...the answer is six of one; half dozen of another.

People who guess a GOD exists may be correct; people who guess the GOD is a personal GOD may be correct; people who guess the GOD has expectations of humans may be correct; people who guess the GOD please with certain human conduct and offended by other human conduct may be correct.

People who guess there are no gods...may be correct.

And people who just do not want to make a blind guess about the question because there is no unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess...ARE CORRECT.

On the subject of religion: what happens to those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God but yet a real person and a prophet without the kingdom of heaven in the prospect? — christine

I don't understand the context. Do you mean "What happens after physical death?"

Life is a reality for Christians just as for Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc. and why would Christians want a way out? Isn't the key purpose to bring those who are lost to Jesus? I am still confused. I am sorry. — christine

My bad. i wrote:

Existence/reality is a trap that real Christians don't fall into. — tim wood

What I should have written, and what I meant, is that taking up the question of the existence/reality of a divine Jesus is the trap. "We believe...". And that's all there is.

I am getting married in 2 weeks. What precipitated this conversation is our vows. I do believe in God but not Jesus — christine

Assuming you identify as Christian, in what way or what sense do you believe in God, that you cannot in a similar way believe in Jesus?
Piece of advice. You get married in a church. You do not marry the church. But you do marry your partner-to-be. A false step here can be a bad one.

Fact is, in a religious discussion, any comment that contains the words "believe" or "belief"...is actually talking about a guess about the unknown. "I 'believe' (in) God"...really means, "My blind guess is that there is a GOD involved in the REALITY of existence." — Frank Apisa

Wrong. "I/we believe..," I suppose can mean that for some people, but not a Christian. And not in a discussion of Christianity. God is an absolute presupposition of Christianity; as such, questions about the existence of God are simply nonsense questions.

what happens to those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God — christine

Needless to say I am agnostic — christine

.

What happens is that you go straight to hell. You do not pass go, you do not collect $200. You are doomed to an eternity of watching daytime TV. :naughty:

"Religion" for many Americans (and many people elsewhere) does not have much meaning. It isn't just a Christian thing, but let's stick to Christianity. In order for Christianity (or any other religion) to have meaning, a person needs to have a minimum level of understanding about what the religion teaches (like, "God is love"; "Love one another as I have loved you." "God expects you to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God." and so on. It is essential to belong to a community of believers to gain deeper understanding of the religion.

A lot of people were born into families who were religious and never had to make a decision to learn about religion. They learned it from pre-school on up till the time they left home. Others grew up in families that were not religious, or were so lukewarm that they might as well have not been.

A Key Understanding: God is not religion. Religion is about God. God doesn't need religion--people do. If God wants to find you, he knows where you live. He doesn't need the church's help. Humans generally need help seeking out God, and that is what religion helps one do. If you are looking for God, join a welcoming church.

tim wood
2.4k

Fact is, in a religious discussion, any comment that contains the words "believe" or "belief"...is actually talking about a guess about the unknown. "I 'believe' (in) God"...really means, "My blind guess is that there is a GOD involved in the REALITY of existence." — Frank Apisa


Wrong. — tim wood

C'mon. Of course I am not wrong on this.

"I/we believe..," I suppose can mean that for some people, but not a Christian. — Tim Wood

It means that for a Christian as much as it means it for anyone else using it in a religious discussion.

And not in a discussion of Christianity. God is an absolute presupposition of Christianity...; — Tim wood

Yeah, that is what I said. It is a guess. That is what a presupposition is.

...as such, questions about the existence of God are simply nonsense questions. — Tim Wood

I do not think they are nonsense. I think they are guesses. They may even be correct. Some guesses are. But they may be incorrect...as many guesses are.

I can't believe this thread is still alive. :snicker:

And people who just do not want to make a blind guess about the question because there is no unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess...ARE CORRECT. — Frank Apisa

That's a pretty strong belief. I may even venture to call it piety.

Merkwurdichliebe
1.1k

And people who just do not want to make a blind guess about the question because there is no unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess...ARE CORRECT. — Frank Apisa


That's a pretty strong belief. I may even venture to call it piety. — Merkwurdichliebe

One...it is not a "belief." I know it.

Two...I do not give a rat's ass what you venture to call it.

One...it is not a "belief." I know it. — Frank Apisa

You believe you know it.
It's possible you don't.

Jesus was a mortal man. And he's not the first or only Son of God; one can be found in the Book of Daniel.

I am getting married in 2 weeks — christine

Mazel tov as we non-Christians say.

A Universalist is a Christian who believes everyone goes to heaven no matter what. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism . This is not a mainstream view. Protestants require faith alone to get to heaven. Catholics require some good acts as well.

A Unitarian Universalist is anyone seeking spirituality, without specific creed. Some identify as Christians, others agnostics and atheists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism . That might be your best choice for a pastor for your vows instead of butting heads with a pastor of a faith inconsistent with yours..

Shamshir
270

One...it is not a "belief." I know it. — Frank Apisa

You believe you know it.
It's possible you don't. — Shamshir

I do not do believing.

I know that it is not a belief.

Everyone believes. Used in religion, it's a reference to having devotion to a cause. He believes in God, he is devoted to God - notice the connotation.

Belief, like a pool of memories you didn't want to lose!

I do not do believing — Frank Apisa

That's a belief

I know that it is not a belief. — Frank Apisa

That is also a belief.

And I know that it's a belief in the same way you know it isn't.
Canny, right?

Shamshir
273

I do not do believing — Frank Apisa

That's a belief — Shamshir

It is not a "belief"...but if it makes your life more worth living to suppose it is...go for it. Cost me nothing...and brings a bit of cheer into your life.

Consider it charity on my part...rather than pity.

I know that it is not a belief. — Frank Apisa

That is also a belief. — Shamshir

No, it isn't. But you obviously need to think it to be...so have a ball.

Anything to help someone like you who needs the help.

And I know that it's a belief in the same way you know it isn't.
Canny, right?

You couldn't be canny if you worked for John Steinbeck.

It is not a "belief" — Frank Apisa

No, it isn't. — Frank Apisa

Any proof, other than you believe it isn't?

What's and where's the infallible proof that determines it's not a belief?

Shamshir
274

It is not a "belief" — Frank Apisa

No, it isn't. — Frank Apisa

Any proof, other than you believe it isn't?

What's and where's the infallible proof that determines it's not a belief? — Shamshir

Sorry, Shamshir, I've got better things to do than arguing with a kid looking for attention. Stick with the other kids in the playground. They like this stuff as much as you.