↪god must be atheist
This is a shift that logic and reason can't bridge.
— god must be atheist

In that case, maybe logic and reason is sometimes looked too highly upon. — Etzsche

If you want something to rule over reason and logic, then let it. I encourage you to do that.

The initial question of this thread is not "how can someone get revenge and get away with it?" the question was "Is revenge a hopeless path to follow, and if so, what will become of someone who is unable to carry out the act?"

I am not asking for advice, or for you to find a solution for me. The question was meant to be thought provoking. I never stated that I myself am in a situation where I need to make the decision to carry out revenge or not.

"1. Is revenge a hopeless path to follow, and if so, 2. what will become of someone who is unable to carry out the act?" — Etzsche

Thanks for clarifying this.

1. Revenge is not a hopeless path to follow if you are willing to put up with the consequences.
2. S/he will for all the rest of his / her life be doomed with sometimes debilitatingly strong feelings of anger, frustration and heavy guilt.

Good luck in your future endeavours.

Is it psychologically possible for someone like the wanderer in the story to exist in real life? — TheHedoMinimalist

Yes I believe it is possible. But I can't help but think that the wanderer gains a sense of self respect from his life of compassion.

Because it flatters us so much.

So perhaps you don't like flattery? You don't like to hear good things about yourself, said by others?

Yes I believe it is possible. But I can't help but think that the wanderer gains a sense of self respect from his life of compassion. — Etzsche

That’s a good point you just brought up. Does this mean that it’s sometimes possible to maintain your dignity while refusing to take revenge?

I would like to entertain you with a story. — TheHedoMinimalist

I find these stories to be such nonsense. Really, what’s to be gained by them?

Does this mean that it’s sometimes possible to maintain your dignity while refusing to take revenge? — TheHedoMinimalist

Maybe it's possible to maintain a logical dignity, but not an emotional one. Same as if one would carry out their revenge, they would keep their emotional dignity and lose their logical one.

So I suppose one must decide whether to respect their intelligence and decision making, or respect their human emotions.

So I suppose one must decide whether to respect their intelligence and decision making, or respect their human emotions. — Etzsche

Fair enough, which do you respect more?

Here’s a real story.

“The Duke of Plantagenent, though a member of the House of York, he switched sides to support the Lancastrians, before reverting to the Yorkists. He was later convicted of treason against his brother, Edward IV, and was executed”. Wikipedia.

If he had not been executed as an act of revenge, then very possibly he would have returned again to plot against King Edward. His murder, as opposed to imprisonment, made this impossible.

Fair enough, which do you respect more? — TheHedoMinimalist

I wish I could say I respect the emotions. I really really wish I could say that. But my logical side is making it really difficult to. I believe I am a more emotional person in general, but consequences can't be ignored. I have to be smart about my decisions, especially in such a pivotal point in my life.

If he had not been executed as an act of revenge, then very possibly he would have returned again to plot against King Edward. His murder, as opposed to imprisonment, made this impossible. — Brett

So putting this into simpler terms, you say that, for example, a thief who has stolen in the past, will steal again if not punished for his actions?

So perhaps you don't like flattery? You don't like to hear good things about yourself, said by others? — god must be atheist

No, not ‘flattery’ in the sense of how good a jacket makes you look to others, but ‘flatter’. We’re impressed by the logic and convinced how right we are by our mastery of logic.

So putting this into simpler terms, you say that, for example, a thief who has stolen in the past, will steal again if not punished for his actions? — Etzsche

No, I don’t mean that. I’m just addressing issues of revenge and situations where it may have had good reason to be enacted.

Emotions are very powerful and intoxicating. Obviously there is some purpose for them, I guess. But we can’t live purely on emotion, it’s destructive. I don’t think revenge is required anymore. Though revenge can be carried out financially, or any number of ways. Our justice system acts on issues of crime, it’s social, no longer an individual issue.

I don’t know if you read the story on Aboriginal ‘payback’, but it works because everyone accepts it and the ‘payback’ puts an end to the whole issue.

Is there a reward in revenge? Possibly, for a very short time. But you’ll pay dearly for that moment.

Edit: regarding the thief, he may still steal after the punishment. So punishment doesn’t seem to be a solution. The death penalty didn’t stop murder.

Edit: I would think revenge doubles your pain.

No, I don’t mean that. I’m just addressing issues of revenge and situations where it may have had good reason to be enacted. — Brett

Ah, I see. Do you think it's worth contacting the police even if it is unlikely that the problem will be solved?

What do you mean?

Do you mean instead of revenge?

Instead of getting revenge on someone myself, the other option would be to go to the police. But the problem is, there's no proof or evidence that the act ever happened.

If you or someone you care about has been wronged, an emotional person would want to retaliate, but laws and restrictions prevent this from being a logical decision. — Etzsche

There are always legal ways to take revenge.

Building off of this, what will become of a person who soaks in this resentment every day for a long span of time? Without any form of catharsis, will the subject be able to make it out alright?

It shouldn't be right for this person to be locked in this cage, or down in a hole. — Etzsche

I agree. It's something I struggle with. I think if one gets passed certain kinds of stages in ones own life, then some of that anger merely dissipates. If someone, for example, treated you cruelly in a romantic relationship - cheat on you, whatever - and then later you go through a few relationships each time being a bit more yourself, getting closer to what you want, and then find someone at last who treats you just the way you want, then the revenge urge will pass or can. One doesn't have to 'succeed' but I think if one moves through the judgments brought up by whatever they did - no one will ever treat me right, life is a lonely hell...etc. for this example - and gets passed them, then the memory has little bite.

None of this is to say that the other person was ok or that anger is wrong. It isn't but one must also notice the other feelings and also realize that much of the bite comes from fears and judgments that it will never be ok, that you have permanently lost something or were made wrong or life is hell, etc.

Instead of getting revenge on someone myself, the other option would be to go to the police. But the problem is, there's no proof or evidence that the act ever happened. — Etzsche

You could go to the police. They may do little, I don’t know. You may have to anticipate that. If there’s no evidence then they probably may not help, but it may help you a little to do that at least. The thing about revenge is that the other party then seeks revenge. In such a situation myself, I would set a time to wait, set things aside and review things again down the track.

Wow. This may have been my favorite response in this whole thread. No offense to any other users, I appreciate all of the input. But this response really resonated with me.

I really like what you said about much of the bite coming from fears and judgments that it will never be okay. I don't think I've thought about it quite in that way.

Also I must say you have a very nice way of speaking, or typing rather, that helps convey what you are saying.

Thanks

revenge.
Building off of this, what will become of a person who soaks in this resentment every day for a long span of time? Without any form of catharsis, will the subject be able to make it out alright? — Coben

You should consider this as just a way to justify your actions. There’s no reason for it to be so detrimental to yourself to refuse revenge.

You should consider this as just a way to justify your actions. — Brett

What do you mean?

What do you mean? — Etzsche

The idea that a person will be permanently soaking in resentment, that a catharsis is required to make it out alright. That may not be the case, but it serves as an excuse for revenge, like a person just needs the tiniest approval to carry out revenge. It’s finding excuses for revenge when you know it’s probably not the best move.

It’s finding excuses for revenge when you know it’s probably not the best move. — Brett

I think you're probably right about that one. Thank you for the clarification.

Thanks

↪fdrake You don't think it's possible that thoughts of revenge could be human nature inviting you to un-civilize yourself? Instead of re-civilizing? — Etzsche

The desire for revenge is probably something that will always be with us, but considering how socially mediated the expression of that desire is, I would be surprised if that was the case. In the aggregate, things which are in our nature; we have no control over. The need to poo isn't like the need to kill your wife for cheating.

What do you mean? — Etzsche

It means it can be a rationalization to do something that might not be good at all. If the choice is presented as feel terrible about it forever or take some kind of revenge, then it seems more logical, though not necessarily logical to take revenge. But there may be a lot of other options. And taking the revenge, even if it goes well, may not really deal with the roots of the problem.

Also it might feel like taking revenge to, for example, tell the person how badly they acted, in a direct, not victimy way, with some anger in the tone, and then move off. Both parties might experience this as revenge, when in fact it could be seen as expressive, good feedback and taking a stand. Hell, it might even be win win. Of course many situaitons preclude this and it may not feel like enough payback etc. Just saying that even immediate impulsive reactions that don't quite fit the traditional idea of revenge might be there to achieve catharsis and move on.

Generally revenge is changing the other person. Getting over the whole pattern is changing yourself. Now when people tell you to change yourself, this can come off like a guilt trip. I think other people sometimes need to deal with the natural consequences of their actions. However if this sends you to prison, you're at an even worse net loss. And sometimes other people simply cannot suffer that much. Film revenge can often be, for example, the quick death of a man who tortured the heroes family to death. One may never make them experience what you did.

I wrestle with this myself. I am way to cautious to do anything illegal or dangerous to myself, so movie revenge is off the table. But still there can be the urge to hurt and I get what you described as far as feelings. I suppose I don't really think of it in moral terms. It's not that i want to be a good person that prevents me. I just don't want to cause myself more problems. So much as I may scream my head off at them in private, or perhaps, totally legally confront them - this happens once in a while - for the most part I have to learn to live with myself and feel good. My feeling good should not be dependant on them suffering, even if they deserve it.

We’re impressed by the logic and convinced how right we are by our mastery of logic. — Brett

I don't want to put words in your mouth. You said you distrust logic, because it flatters you; so you distrust things that make you feel good? Or is it only logic, the one thing of many that makes you feel good, that you distrust? for instance, you trust your chocolate cheese cake, you trust your lover, you trust your children, they all make you feel good, (I'm assuming that... substitute anything else that makes you feel good) but some, including logic, you are distrustful of.

What is it between logic and something you enjoy and trust, that makes you distrust logic? If you enjoy both of them, like you would enjoy a remark about yourself that makes you feel good, what is the inherent thing in logic that makes you distrust it?

And you said you don't ALWAYS distrust it, but sometimes.

Hm?

I wish I could say I respect the emotions. I really really wish I could say that. But my logical side is making it really difficult to. I believe I am a more emotional person in general, but consequences can't be ignored. I have to be smart about my decisions, especially in such a pivotal point in my life. — Etzsche

Ok. I think it’s good that you don’t let your negative emotions run your life. Although, I would say that compassion is also an emotion and the wanderer in the story does seem to respect his emotions. He just prioritizes what I think are the positive emotions rather than the negative ones. I think if the wonderer was purely logical, then he would of never volunteered to be humiliated for the boy or even runaway from his royal life to become a wonderer. Either way, I agree with you that you have to smart about what decisions we make in life, because we would suffer greatly if we make the wrong decisions.